181–190 of 377 posts
> The younger person also addresses the older person, usually with a title or another word that fits their relationship, but not their name. Only the older person addresses the younger one with their name. (There can be more nuance.) I love this. I'm an old French guy and still can't quite accept when srangers in an email (or a machine, a system, a web form) adress me using my first name. Being "on a first name basis…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Giving respect based on seniority is one of the major reasons why autocracies thrive unchecked in some countries as younger people are unable to hold older folks accountable.
seniority as in rank, and respect for elders as in filial piety in East Asia are two very different things. Autocracy relies on execution of arbitrary power, and the latter places a limit on it. It's why after the revolution in China, Confucianism is the first thing they tried to get rid of. I stayed in Beijing during the covid lockdowns and there was one group of people that could do what they wanted "dancing granni…
Insamuch as Confucian filial piety can be a check on upstart autocrats, that's useful, but not sufficient. There's nothing stopping the Maoist autocracy from embracing Confucius[1]; Mao just didn't want to for ideological reasons. Autocrats are ultimately building a coalition of scam victims that are all locked in the same room with one another. They don't care who's in the room as long as they won't unify against the leader.
In the US, we have Trump, the oldest US President in history, with, to put it mildly, "autocratic ambitions". His coalition includes old people, who vote early and often, and want to impose the social order of the 1950s upon the country. Almost[2] nothing about them suggests that they're going to meaningfully check Trump's power anytime soon; if anything, they're the only[3] faction of the Trump coalition that's gotten anything out of the deal.
[0] If the autocrat wins, they will eventually just become the new traditionalist power structure. Every pirate wants to become an admiral.
[1] Mussolini recognized the Vatican as a sovereign state purely to get the Pope to shut up about him.
[2] Insert clip of some old guy vandalizing a Cybertruck here.
[3] No, I don't count pardoning Ross Ulbricht. The Libertarian Party sold their soul for a donut.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I also great up in Texas (30yo now). I was raised to always say sir/ma'am but for most adults that I knew well, we were on a first name basis. Deacons at church were usually on a first name basis (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew them all really well) but the one noticeable exception was the pastor and anyone in a teaching role. Teachers were always addressed by Mr/Mrs/Ms and this extended into Scouts as well.…
> Deacons at church were usually on a first name basis (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew them all really well) but the one noticeable exception was the pastor and anyone in a teaching role. That brings up an actually interesting exception. At my church, the pastors were the only adults we'd ever call by their first name, sort of. Our pastor, for example, was always Brother Mike, not Pastor .
Earlier quoted context omitted.
>I find it super irritating when people address me by my last name. Me too. There are still German companies where coworkers address others with Herr or Frau followed by their last name. I find it also interesting how people that learn German understand the difference between the "you" in formal ("sie") and informal ("du") version, but often don't understand in which context du use them. In most cases you can use the…
It's a generational thing. There has definitely been a change in recent years, especially the younger generation can no longer do much with the formal “Sie”, but of course they know it. I am 46 years old and have grown up with and been familiar with the “Du/Sie” dichotomy from the very beginning. It also has many advantages and offers clear relationships: There is no ambiguity as to which pronouns I use to address so…
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I also great up in Texas (30yo now). I was raised to always say sir/ma'am but for most adults that I knew well, we were on a first name basis. Deacons at church were usually on a first name basis (my parents volunteered a lot so I knew them all really well) but the one noticeable exception was the pastor and anyone in a teaching role. Teachers were always addressed by Mr/Mrs/Ms and this extended into Scouts as well.…
> I was raised to always say sir/ma'am I also grew up in Texas and to this day I still tend to use sir/ma'am for most adults I don't know. Every now and then it seems to throw people off. People don't seem to expect to hear "Yes, sir" very often it seems.
Japanese also has a number of social systems and expectations that can be tricky to navigate as an outsider. When I was younger and studying Japanese I used to play a popular Japanese MMORPG. It was popular among middle aged individuals (25-50). I was lucky enough to meet a Japanese clan leader that invited me into one of the largest clans in the game. Fast forward a year or so-- and a new player joined the clan. One…
> I would often suggest things we could do or ask if they wanted to do something. In reality, it was expected to do small talk and wait for senior clan members to suggest something to do. I was crossing some social boundary... I know that this sort of shit happens in corporations and the government, but the idea that it crosses over into even multiplayer games makes me reconsider if I really want to ever visit Japan.…
I found an interesting interview on youtube of someone who grew up in Japan and moved to Korea:
> What is your favorite thing about Korea?
> I find it comfortable that Koreans are honest about their thoughts.
> In the beginning I was hurt a lot and it was hard because of how honest Koreans are
> What do you think is the difference between Korea and Japan?
> First of all I think there is a difference in personality
> Since I was living in Japan, up until I was 18 years old, I had a typical Japanese personality
> Back then I couldn't speak my mind [...] and dancing was the only way I could express myself
> [...] and I also couldn't reject [someone/something]
> when my friends said we should do something, I always said yes
> after living in Korea, I felt a lot that I need to say what I want and don't want to do
Given that it's unacceptable to reject what a peer wants to do in Japan, I can see where making suggestions to a superior would cause problems.
From the perspective of national and social development, this is definitely a dross culture. This system similar to hierarchy seemingly increases the courtesy among people. However, it more often leads to age bullying, blind obedience to the elders, and hinders resistance and innovation. Influenced by Confucian culture, China doesn't have such a perverted etiquette system at all.
Typical cultural superiority bias. Every way has its pros and cons. Having an age related hierarchy might have benefits like societal coherence or stability. I am not a proponent of it, I just acknowledge my inability to fully grasp the impact and ramifications as to label one as superior and the other as "perverted".
Earlier quoted context omitted.
I really don't get why just the concept of deserving respect for having lived longer - why does that make you more deserving of respect, irrespective of how you lived?
Just the fact that they lived so much longer. And are usually more wise in life experience. That doesn't mean I tolerate old farts shouting at my children for being young. Or excuse shitty behavior in general. But the default for me is paying respect for the elders. Offering them my seat in the train if there is no other, etc.
But... why does living longer in and of itself command an extra degree of respect?
> And are usually more wise in life experience.
assertion ;)
> That doesn't mean I tolerate old farts shouting at my children for being young. Or excuse shitty behavior in general.
> But the default for me is paying respect for the elders.
> Offering them my seat in the train if there is no other, etc.
I offer old people my seat because they'll likely feel pain if they have to stand up for a while, they might fall down if the bus goes bump, etc. I won't be pained by standing up for 45 minutes so it doesn't really come at any cost to me.
i.e. I'm not giving up my seat because I respect old people for being old.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
It's a definition that could add 1 to everyone's birthday celebrations. A baby born on the 15th of June 2024 could be celebrating its 2nd birth day in a few days. Or well the family would. They'd celebrate the birth, and why not count that as a "birthday celebration".. Ha. Curiously I guess most of us celebrate the number of years completed.
They would be celebrating their first anniversary.
Earlier quoted context omitted.
Interesting, as a German (which also has a similar system), I am the complete opposite, I find it super irritating when people address me by my last name. And the worst part is having to figure out how to address others, especially people you've known for a while but aren't really close to, e.g. say long-time neighbors I rarely meet. Luckily, in the IT industry, it's common to just use first names with everybody.
>I find it super irritating when people address me by my last name. Me too. There are still German companies where coworkers address others with Herr or Frau followed by their last name. I find it also interesting how people that learn German understand the difference between the "you" in formal ("sie") and informal ("du") version, but often don't understand in which context du use them. In most cases you can use the…
We also pretty much always use first name, at least everywhere I've been. Would feel weird to call people by their last name.