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Legal myths about the Assange extradition

newstatesman.com

181–187 of 187 posts

Re: Legal myths about the Assange extradition

#181
post #179
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure about what you're saying... but if you're saying that the fact that ECHR considers judgments in absentia to be of no legal repercussions... means that a State can pursue charges in absentia even more easily... well... I think, in my understanding of Law, that you are wrong. It means that pursuing charges in absentia... is of no legal repercussions (duh). So the accused is entitled a right to a full fresh…

Charging or accusing is one thing, passing judgement another. From http://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/yh6g6/why_didnt_the_uk_... : > The French penal procedure used to demand similarly that a suspect should surrender and go to prison on the eve of his criminal trial. The European Court consistently found this a violation of 6§1 in a string of cases (Omar, Guerin, Khalfoui, Goth, Papon, Coste, Morel, Walser, etc.) t…

Well. You actually cast some doubts on my knowledge of French procedural law... so since, France is a civil law country I went to the Code de Procédure Pénale. So small class about what happen when a Judge d'Instruction (which in France is an independent judge who is charged of preparing the case to be judged in a formal court. But only on serious crimes affairs, or when it's a complex affair. So it's like an "expert" prosecutor for serious cases which job is not to actually prosecute... but to really gather the evidence for a fair trial (he has the mission of searching evidences for and against the suspect) I will use JI to refer to this judge) want to speak to someone.

3 cases :

1 - The person is not seriously suspected of being the perpetrator of the crime investigated. He can be forced to present itself to the JI if the JI wants it. Then he will be considered a witness. This is Art. 101 of the CPP (Code of Penal Procedure) In the case of an external impossibility (meaning that it's not just the guy not wanting to come) the JI can actually go to the witness or hear the witness by any mean (Art. 109 CPP). So even if you are a just a witness you can be forced to come.

2 - An assisted witness Art.113-1 CPP (that's when there is some possibility that you are going to be indicted because you are a suspect), the difference is that an assisted witness has the right to have a lawyer, more rights etc. If you have been identified at least by name by the victim, then you must at least be this. So at least. Assange would have been an assisted witness. It's true that an assisted witness has the right to ask is own indictment, and the JI must comply (Art. 113-6 CPP). BUT, to have the assisted witness status you must have been heard at least once by the JI. Force can still be used to present to assisted witness to the JI, and in case of impossibility etc. etc.

3 - Indicted (Mise en examen). A lot of rights, but also much much much more power to the JI investigating the case. And well, the indictment defined at the 80-1 and 80-2 CPP is quite clearly possible after a face to face interview between the JI and the suspect : Translation by myself "The indictment can only happen after the first interview of the person in front of the JI"...

I could go on explaining the fine details of this law... but I think you got the picture.

Oh, and about your "string of cases"... I'm really sorry to say it... but you totally misinterpreting them. I mean... radically.

See Walser v. France => The problem was that the plaintiff in this case was arrested to be presented to a JI, she (the plaintiff) was then held in custody of the police for more than the legal 48h (58:30 actually) and the only had her first meeting with the JI and was then indicted, benefiting of all rights and protections of the indicted (a lawyer, access to the role of events and her own file etc.). The ECHR says it right away, the problem was the lack of due diligence by the police, not the arrest in itself. The European Judges said that the maximum time to be detained before a presentation to a prosecutor is 48h outside of extraordinary situation (Like the case I cited of Medvedyev v. France, where since it was an extraordinary situation (Medvedyev and all where caught in the middle of the ocean 10 days away from the nearest French coast, so they said that since they where presented right away to a judge after landing, it was legal).

So clearly the Good Court of Strasbourg is not objecting the fact that the suspect was forced to surrender to French police to be then questioned by the Judges and Prosecutors. The Wise Court is saying that police waited too long and thus abused authority. And French law was modified accordingly, creating the articles 803-2 803-3 in the CPP saying that the suspect must be presented in the legal time and quicker possible.

Oh... but maybe you're referring something happening at a totally different moment in the procedure. Yeah... you know, the act of surrender as a prisoner... just before a supreme court trial if, and only if he had been judged guilty by the appellate court. Nothing to do with the indictment, the investigation and everything. It's only that French law required that if an appellate court said you were guilty and sentenced you to a prison sentence, then you had to first go beyond bars to be able to require an appeal in front of the supreme court. This element of law has been deleted of French law in 2000, yes. But has nothing at all to do with the present case. And as I show, the Court is perfectly fine with authorizing the police to arrest people so they can be presented to a judge to be indicted and then investigated, which is exactly what is going on here with Assange... This cases are filled in the Access to a Tribunal Rights at the ECHR books, not the rights of persons being investigated.

TL;DR: Omar and etc. are cases concerning the fact that in France before 2000 if you where sentenced to prison by an appellate court, you had to surrender yourself to the police in order to be able to appeal to the Supreme Court. If you were on the run, your lawyer couldn't file an appeal to the Supreme. But this has nothing to do with the present case. Since Assange already filed complaints in Sweden about decisions by the prosecutors and etc. And the ECHR is perfectly fine with an arrest in investigations, provided it is to present the suspect to a prosecutor or judge (and some other cases also).

Finally : Assange has a fundamental right to file appeal even if he is on the run. But the prosecutors have the right to ask police to bring Assange by force if he denies coming willingly.

---- Now speaking of the other comments you made : ----

On the subject of respect of the rule of law by Sweden and UK, you are right. Nothing impedes UK and Sweden than become worse than China on that matter. BUT, frankly... that kind of thing does not happen out of the blue. Guantanomo and Pvt Manning is out of scope, that's US, and we both agree that Justice in the US is quite needing in everything that concerns """"National Security"""". We are speaking of Sweden and UK here.

Oh and... about the special relationship... sooo if this relationship is so special... and since, I pretty sure Sweden's relationship with US is not at allll that special, why the hell would he be afraid of going to Sweden to be extradicted to the US ?

Re: Legal myths about the Assange extradition

#182

Ok, I'm from sweden, and I'm a supporter of wiki-leaks, this is my perspective on this: Why do everyone seem to become a tin-foil hat when it comes to Assange? Prosecuting Assange for rape in Sweden has nothing to do with prosecuting him for espionage in America. Sure, there are people trying to boost their careers by this case, being the one to convict Assange for a crime like this might be a great way to speed up y…

Look at what we know about the case. Look at the girls hanging out with him _after_ the supposed rape. Does that sound like the actions of a rape victim to you? Add to that the case has already been dropped by the first prosecutor _and_ the girls didn't want to prosecute him for rape (they merely wanted to know if they could force him to take an STD test). Oh and supposedly the new prosecutor is friends with one of t…

It's sad that a thread about Wikileaks is leading us to comments like this. It is in fact not unusual for people to remain cordial after being sexually assaulted by an acquaintance. People are routinely raped by their spouses and significant others, and those people do not instantly break off their relationships. Confusion and conflicted feelings are the norm in these situations.

It is possible to believe that Julian Assange is the victim of a politically motivated frame-up without writing dismissively about acquaintance rape.

Re: Legal myths about the Assange extradition

#183
post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an interesting piece of information I wasn't aware of. Wish the news media was smart enough to dig into things to uncover stuff like this.

They do. From the first NYT article I found when I searched for "Assange" on their site, http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/21/world/europe/twists-in-jul... : Some observers also expressed surprise that Mr. Assange, who shot to fame as a fighter for transparency and press freedom, had chosen Ecuador as a potential refuge. He and the country’s president, Rafael Correa, shared warm laughter and a disdain for the United Sta…

HN is an interesting subculture, but most Americans would like to Assange in US prison, trying to explain to Red Rope and Benteye why he should keep his tennis shoes.

Re: Legal myths about the Assange extradition

#184
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But then the question becomes: why would he be more vulnerable in Sweden than in the UK? The linked article argues that he is more vulnerable to extradition to the US in the UK. I buy that argument. What is your argument that he would be more vulnerable in Sweden?

Sweden is a huge country with very low population density and one of its neighbors is Russia, a formidable military power. This means it is very dependent on the US for its security, and more likely to be vulnerable to explicit or implicit pressure from the US than an island nation of 60 million people that is also a nuclear power. I'm convinced this is also the case with Australia, which is why they're so unwilling…

You do realise the British nukes are Polaris missiles bought from and serviced by the United States, correct? Put blunt, the UK wouldn't be a nuclear power right now if the US didn't sell them ICBMs.

I believe the "special relationship" between the US and the UK would still stand if the US asked for an Australian to be extradited from the UK to the US. The British just extradited O'Dwyer to the US for civil offences. Assange would most likely be charged under the US Espionage Act, which is a criminal offence.

Re: Legal myths about the Assange extradition

#185
post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is it suspicious at all for the Interpol to hunt for a possible rapist? When does the Interpol ever get involved in a rape case? Especially one where someone is suspected of not-actually-rape -"rape", and supposedly only wanted for "questioning"? What the fuck? Does this not sound suspicious to you at all ? > If the U.S. really wanted Assange, why haven't they charged him of espionage, hacking, anything to pres…

Sweden does not want him for questioning. They want to arrest him for rape.

Really now?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2010/dec/21/julian-assange-d...

Julian Assange today defended his decision not to return to Sweden for questioning over allegations of sexual assault, saying he did not need to be "at the beck and call of people making allegations".

Apparently in 2010, it was for "questioning". It was bullshit then, and it's bullshit now.

Re: Legal myths about the Assange extradition

#186
post #102
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has that ever happened in the history of modern diplomacy? The guards of one embassy sent to invade another embassy? This doesn't sound silly to you?

Things happening that have never happened before occur so frequently they invented a word for it: Precedent. And yes, the whole fiasco is silly. Do you actually think this is about Sweden wanting to extradite him for accusations of rape? Seriously, compare this to Roman Polanski, who was actually convicted of the crimes and the Swiss still rejected extradition. And no, for the record, I don't think the UK saying, "Ok…

I can't help but wonder if tptacek has ties to the government. He's always defending The Establishment in whatever comes up - be it banks taking away people's homes, or now Assange.

It's just weird. He's smarter than I am, and I can see bullshit for what it is.

Re: Legal myths about the Assange extradition

#187
post #28
post #16

I don't want to be a tinfoil hat conspiracy nut and make unsubstantiated claims here, so I'm a bit hesitant to voice these thoughts. But legal issues or not: You need to have blind trust in the well-meaning efforts of national governments to believe that there aren't larger forces at work here than Swedish prosecutors wanting to charge Assange with rape. This is not the kind of high-profile violent crime that would l…

The Swedish government cannot guarantee Assange won't be extradited; it falls on the Swedish judicial system to do that. Your comment again puts forward the idea that the political forces aligned against Assange are so great that no amount of critical thinking, due process, or countervailing concern for the rights of victims can apply: it is, to use your word, "obvious" that the case isn't about "rape", but about an…

As to why US would care if Assange was in Sweden, maybe it has something to do with the wikileaks hosting? I don't know, and I don't really think so -- but I just came across this:

https://p10.secure.hostingprod.com/@spyblog.org.uk/ssl/wikil...

Maybe it would make it easier to (legally) wire tap communication going through the Wikileaks infrastructure if Assange is improsoned in Sweden ? (Eg: open an investigation for suspicion of drug use in prison).

Just a thought.

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