Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#181

Post by jeffrallen » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 12:47 PM UTC

Just a data point: I once avoided giving the first number, and when pushed into it, gave a ridiculously high number for a job I really wanted. The HR guy said, "no that's too high". Well duh, idiot. You make a big story about how you can't possibly move forward until I tell you something, I'm going to tell you something, and you're not going to like it.

I waited a day to cool off and think hard, and called the guy back to say, "Your colleagues have selected me, I've proven I'll be able to do this job, and they told you they want me to. I told you, make me an offer. You instead required me to make an offer, and look where it got us? Now do as I asked, make me an offer, and we'll see. I won't be offended, this is a hard post to fill, and we both want this to work, so just try, will you?"

Hardest phone call I ever made, but worth it. I saved my colleagues from having to go find another candidate, and got myself a job I wanted for the right price.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#182

Post by CharlieDigital » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 1:18 PM UTC

davely wrote: post #132

CharlieDigital wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't say that this is a blanket truth; of course size of org matters, too. But I think there's an effect like a "bet" that now favors the candidate that negotiated. When you negotiate and the hiring manager or company accepts, it's like they're placing a bet that you were absolutely the best candidate in that pool. Imagine you're the one doing the hiring. What kind of candidate would you extend extra compensation…

Maybe this is a blind spot for me, but my inclination is to think it doesn’t matter? Only because the company has already made you an offer in the first place, ergo they see your value and are already making a bet on you. Has there ever been an instance where an offer has been rescinded because a prospective employee didn’t negotiate?

    > Has there ever been an instance where an offer has been rescinded because a prospective employee didn’t negotiate?

You're looking at it as a one-sided outcome where the company rescinds an offer.

How about the other side? Where the company sees you as an even more desirable candidate and increases the offer? Signing bonus, increased salary, other perks?

Author's whole point is "You always win if you negotiate the right way."

The author's point isn't that you aren't going to get the job by not negotiating, the author's point is that you're leaving money on the table by not negotiating. Potentially a lot of money by thinking that the other side is fair and transparent in their offer to you or doing you "a favor" by giving you a job rather than seeing that there is, unfortunately, a game that has to be played once you get to the offer stage.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#183

Post by bdangubic » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 2:47 PM UTC

izacus wrote: post #141

bdangubic wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would NEVER work for a company where dollars are what they are - that is fucking mcdonald’s and I would in passing tell everyone their employer is either financially insolvent or a sweatshop. jesus!

I think they're doing just fine without you then. Don't seem very sorry either :P

companies will always find slaves, always been that way

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#184

Post by pkdpic » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 2:58 PM UTC

He's not a perfect figure but I always really valued Haseebs perspective and energy. I used to have access to an old lecture of his explaining memory management through whiteboard sketches of original mario that I really loved in addition to dozens of energetic insightful lectures on foundational computer science concepts that he basically did for free before his AirBnB position.

I think he played a big role for a lot of pre-pandemic bootcamp imposters like me.

But seeing this pop back up on HN I'm wondering how radically the tech world / job market has changed. I've been hiding in kushy underpaid remote jobs basically since the pandemic so I have no real idea whats going on out there.

How applicable is this perspective to the present day market for software engineers? How much have things fundamentally changed?

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#185

Post by KronisLV » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 3:03 PM UTC

Oh hey, this uses PT fonts, I quite like them:

https://fonts.google.com/specimen/PT+Sans

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_Fonts

I'd actually use them as my main programming font if the dot (.) character wasn't a bit too small at smaller font sizes.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#186

Post by 1970-01-01 » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 3:03 PM UTC

>oh, a company wants to give me a job! What a relief!” As though having a job were in itself some special privilege for which a company is the gatekeeper.

A global recession is happening. Let's see if this advice will withstand the times or will age like milk. I predict the latter; the Great Depression wasn't fake news.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#187

Post by parpfish » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 3:40 PM UTC

sgustard wrote: post #104

parpfish wrote: post #65

I wish I could take this advice, but my imposter syndrome is just too strong and you cant just turn it off with logical explanations. By the time I get an offer, I already feel like I’m already uncomfortable about all the bragging I’ve had to do to hype myself up. Asking for more in a negotiation is just a recipe for even worse guilt during the onboarding process (which is already a fraught time for feeling like an i…

Imagine meeting co-workers on your first day: "This is parpfish, a rock star who is making twice what all of you make. He is one of those 10x engineers you all hear about. Just stay out of his way while he re-architects all our systems!" I think I should have taken the lower offer?

The hope would be to get an intro like “This is parish, a normal 1x coder that makes a normal amount of money so please be forgiving when he doesn’t understand something”.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#188

Post by magneticnorth » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 3:53 PM UTC

Aeolun wrote: post #144

magneticnorth wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In addition to your (presumably positive-enough) interview performance that the later company has themselves, they also have a "hire" recommendation from an entire other interview loop at a different company. That's a strong signal, and probably puts you ahead of most people interviewing at the later company, who only have the one set of positive feedback.

That’s theoretically true, but the only proof they have of that is the 5 or so words I uttered saying “I have a different offer”. Why should those 5 words make all the difference. You could say them without any offer at all and suddenly get the job?

Yes, you can lie to people and have good things happen to you because they believed the lie.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#189

Post by dasil003 » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 4:01 PM UTC

jh00ker wrote: post #116

johndhi wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a hiring manager, this might help negotiate pay up if I already wanted to hire you, but if I was on the fence, knowing someone I'm not thrilled with has an offer does basically nothing for me.

As a hiring manager, if I was on the fence, knowing someone I'm not thrilled with has an offer makes me try to figure out what I/we missed and I would reexamine potential gaps in our recruiting processes with the candidate, which are always wrought with biases. And luck is such a big factor (on both the company- and candidate-side) in getting a positive signal.

As a hiring manager with over two decades experience I tend not to think this way unless I know who the other hiring manager is, have reason to believe that they are strong at hiring, and that the role they are hiring for is similar enough to mine for it to mean something.

That's not to say I don't think about where I might have blind spots for a candidate—as you say, all processes are biased—but I've seen too many bozos in this industry (especially as the money started to become its own draw) to take a random offer as signal for anything. More context is necessary or it's just garbage in garbage out.

Re: Rules for Negotiating a Job Offer (2016)

#190

Post by shalmanese » Sun, Apr 06, 2025, 4:03 PM UTC

palata wrote: post #48

I looked for resources a few years ago and found a post by a software engineer talking about "Fearless Salary Negotiation" [1]. The engineer said: "it's a small book, cost me around 40 bucks which were immediately compensated by the fact that I managed to negotiate a higher salary". I wanted to ask for a raise: I had been working in that startup for 4 years and had never had a raise. I thought "if that book helps me…

> reading it, I felt like a child: it only says common sense stuff, but I had been doing everything wrong my whole life

Negotiation is a grammar. The rules of the grammar, when laid out on the page, sound incredibly basic. But like any grammar, anyone used to "hearing" the grammar, it becomes immediately apparently who has command of the grammar and who is making grammatical mistakes.

But the point of the grammar is not to learn the grammar, the point of the grammar is to make beautiful sentences. How far you choose to go down the path is up to your own avocation but learning the grammar allows you to understand and communicate the beautiful sentences of negotiation.