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The Burnout Machine

unionize.fyi

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Re: The Burnout Machine

#181

Post by sophacles »

Terr_ wrote: post #135
sophacles wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A union doesn't have to be "workers for company X employees". It can be "web developers union" or similar - this is how the trades organize (see the pipefitters, and IBEW for some examples). Neat thing about this type of organizing is that the union provides training and standardization paths. Both of those make moving between jobs easier. They can also provide a standardized way of differentiating employee levels (e…

> something that I suspect is the real reason unions don't catch on more in tech. I think a bigger issue is the difficulty of measuring correctness and quantity of individual output. For a classic-style of union in manufacturing, the standardized widgets coming off an assembly line mean it's easier to determine which workers are being fired for actual-cause, versus the ones who need to be protected by the union becau…

An awful lot of unions exist in spaces where "compare the widget to the template" is an impossibility. Some examples:

SAE standardizes the labor cost for a given task, although an individual mechanic may go faster and slower than the proscribed hours. The same mechanaic will have different times for multiple instances of the same task based on details of the job.

Police unions effectively require arbitration on an employee by employee basis, since police work is so highly situationally dependent.

Creative unions like SAG and screewriters guild often don't have the notion of measuring quality of output. They exist to ensure various workplace rules (safety, breaks, sane environment, etc) and minimum compensation standards are followed.

The union is not a template of how to be an assembly line worker - its a way to equalize the power between an employer and employees. The specifics of how one union negotiates its collective bargain don't dictate what a union for an entirely different group of people will negotiate.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#182

Post by aaronbaugher »

shadowgovt wrote: post #143

This will take a change of attitude. I entered the industry right around the dotcom bust, when people were still making the jump from their 9-to-5 for whatever big or small company to seeking angel investment and starting their own business. My observation early in my career regarding unions and software engineers was "The first step would be for software engineers to stop thinking their biggest impediment to greatne…

I dunno. I've been waiting for that to happen since the 90s, when the D and R halves of the uniparty fully teamed up to make Wall Street and corporate profits their #1 priority and encouraged the exporting or outsourcing of every job possible. We've had 30+ years to do something about it, but we were always too independent and anti-social for that.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#183

Post by fiveOneFive »

dnissley wrote: post #158
ryandrake wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. As usual, HN commenters are rat-holing on the precise meaning of "demanding 80 hour weeks" and trying to refute it by saying "Well, ackshually, companies don't spell out an explicit requirement for exactly 80 hours, therefore there exists no pressure to work long hours!" Example given: When one of your co-workers gets visible praise and maybe a small spot bonus for burning the midnight oil, working a heroic…

These companies attract hyperanxious and/or hypercompetitive types (among many others, e.g. the hyperdeluded "save the world" types, the hypermaterialistic "drive to work in cars worth 6 figures" types, etc). You don't accidentally end up in a big tech job. Most people have to grind leetcode in order to get into these companies -- you know full well what you're getting into. Your offer letter may actually state "peop…

[dead]

Re: The Burnout Machine

#184

Post by lll-o-lll »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

> In some (e.g., medical careers), grind is not optional

Not disagreeing with your post in general, but the grind for medical specialists is only until 30 something. Once you are “consultant” (in Australia), it’s basically huge money with a job for life at whatever hours you want to work; almost anywhere in the world.

Don’t get me wrong, the grind until then is extreme, but it’s a weird comparison to make.

Overall, I agree that we are super privileged in the world of software.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#185

Post by daedrdev »

brian-armstrong wrote: post #179
nosefurhairdo wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather have layoffs at your company or have your company go out of business due to excessive labor costs? Should poor performers be immune from layoffs? When is a layoff justifiable? I'm free to leave my job at any time, so why shouldn't my employer be free to leave me?

> Would you rather have layoffs at your company or have your company go out of business due to excessive labor costs? I invite you to read earnings reports from any of the FAANG companies in the last 5 years. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Most people actually don't work at immensely profitable FAANG companies.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#186

Post by ornornor »

nosefurhairdo wrote: post #170
__loam wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incredible that people like you will watch the industry lay off hundreds of thousands of workers then turn around and make this argument. It's like devs are allergic to any semblance of labor solidarity.

Would you rather have layoffs at your company or have your company go out of business due to excessive labor costs? Should poor performers be immune from layoffs? When is a layoff justifiable? I'm free to leave my job at any time, so why shouldn't my employer be free to leave me?

Your employer doesn’t need you to buy food or pay for a roof over their head.

You need your employer to stay fed and housed.

There is a lot more downside for you than your employer, thus a massive power asymmetry. The only way to restore the balance is solidarity between workers and it’s usually a union (or a guild)

Re: The Burnout Machine

#187

Post by icedchai »

FranzFerdiNaN wrote: post #58
film42 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Great. Show me examples of teams who took that bet and how it paid off.

Are you working 7 days a week in horrific circumstances? Do you have children as your colleagues? No? That’s due to unions and labourers fighting for the rights you currently have.

I've had plenty of colleagues that act like children.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#188

Post by busterarm »

jimbokun wrote: post #167
echelon wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I made $450k TC in my last job. In Atlanta. I don't think we need unions to be treated well. Unions will kickstart the offshoring of our career. Just like every other place unions exist without a talent monopoly (manufacturing, automotive, and most recently film crews). Google is going to hire in developing markets and stop hiring domestically. Everyone else will follow. The talent in India is incredible these days.…

Well clearly you don’t need a tech union.

But with tech unions, situations like the parent's become non-existent because individuals can't negotiate for themselves.

I've been in three different unions in my life. All three exploited me. All three were in the employer's pocket. All three unfairly distributed the work so that the union rep and their friends got the easiest work and the best pay. All three made sure I was paid the minimum.

My computer skills are what finally allowed me to punch my own ticket. I'll be damned if I hand that power back over to someone else.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#189

Post by FridgeSeal »

echelon wrote: post #132
mikepurvis wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd be particularly interested in cases where unionization led to better products and processes . Like in a world where management just wanted to ship everything half baked, the union gave the workforce the voice required to insist on accurate and up to date documentation, comprehensive testing, proper dependency tracking and security practices, etc. I feel like almost everyone I talk to in tech says that behind the…

We don't need software unions. We need to break up big tech. Software companies should be able to hire and fire. We often need to have 24/7 oncall. Needs are flexible. Startups must be nimble. It's the tech giants that are ruining it for everyone. They're preventing new centicorns from forming. They're forcing underpriced M&A for successes, moving into markets with infinite money and killing upstarts before they find…

Por que no los dos??

> Software companies should be able to hire and fire.

Almost every company in every industry makes this dubious claim. Then we rediscover the benefits of team knowledge and stability.

> We often need to have 24/7 oncall

This feels completely orthogonal to the discussion at hand, nobody is claiming that a union will somehow make doing on-call impossible. Many other professions that do have unions, have an on-call analog.

Re: The Burnout Machine

#190

Post by achierius »

stared wrote: post #100

Software engineering is one of the ways of playing life in "easy mode" (I moved from academia over a decade ago, and I know the difference). This blog post tries to paint it differently - and it feels like it lacks perspective compared to virtually any other occupation. > We’re living in a world where billion dollar tech companies expect us to live and breathe code, demanding 80 hour weeks under the guise of "passion…

This applies to some people (it certainly applies to me!) but not to everyone. Insofar as any white collar worker can be exploited, which they can, plenty of SWEs are making better to stand alongside those who aren't? Why is the "proper" thing to do just going your own way and being happy that you got yours?
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