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Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

micahflee.com

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Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#181

Post by boomboomsubban »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #108
boomboomsubban wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I seem to remember a story of a mafia don who turned out to be an informant, which seems wild to me. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitey_Bulger

he was informant to cover his ass, and run to attempts to play all sides. slip the feds a little juice tidbit here or there and he gets to run his empire a few months longer. repeat over and over until the feds get smart.

This makes it sound like the FBI was unaware they were dealing with a mafia don. They knew and didn't care, it benefit them.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#182

Post by mindslight »

scarecrowbob wrote: post #163
mikeyouse wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody on the left disputes the fucked up history of the FBI or CIA -- but they're not being dismantled, they're being explicitly weaponized against the Left again. If Trump had said, "The FBI has a racist an unamerican history, we need to shut it down", he might find some common ground, but instead he's pointing at the occasional investigation of someone in his party or social class as evidence of their "wokeness" a…

This is pretty close to my position. If they are trying to close in on the intelligence and police state because it's not vicious enough against folks they don't like (which includes me and a lot of folks I care about) then a "new and improved" CIA / FBI isn't a "good" thing. I generally hate the US gov for it's history of doing objectively evil things (I pass by a former "residential school" every time I drive into…

This whole neofascist movement is fueled by a mistaken belief that dismantling existing power structures will create a stable situation with more freedom, as opposed to the reality that different power structures will eagerly step into the vacuum.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#183

Post by cryptonector »

red-iron-pine wrote: post #112
Ancapistani wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What the louder militia members and gun nuts are up to is no secret. For that matter, I'd include myself in the latter group. I'm reasonably vocal here - usually in an attempt to simply share my perspective, as it's not of the prevailing position in this community. Sure, "the gun nuts" have a different agenda than the larger community. We're gun nuts because that's important to us. I can't think of anything that I'…

> Lots of things that could be easily taken out of context, sure, and a fair number of things that are just plain inappropriate - but you could say the same for any community. What kind of ridiculous copium is this? i'm sure the quilting community says all sorts of terrible things that could be taken out of context. the difference is they don't have a long history of gun violence. ain't no one showed up and killed 20…

> and what is your 2nd amendment right doing now? the government, and arguably global economy, is under threat and you're doing what exactly with these guns?

It sounds like you're either advocating or wishing that gun owners "do something", something presumably violent. And that in a post ascribing desire for violence to [from context] militias and gun nuts. A bit strange, IMO.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#184

Post by cryptonector »

pnemonic wrote: post #142
ty6853 wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I understand there are arguments for it. I can even understand where they are coming from. What is interesting is many of these anti 2A sorts unknowingly speak their murderous intent out loud. They are that which they hate.

That's fair. It is highly hypocritical to call for the end of civilian gun ownership but expect civilian gun owners to save them from authoritarian goverment. It is also hypocritical for civilian gun owners to claim they will use their 2A rights to protect themselves and other citizens from authoritarian government but fail to be vigilant enough to recognize the rise of authoritarianism. This only works if the people…

> That's fair. It is highly hypocritical to call for the end of civilian gun ownership but expect civilian gun owners to save them from authoritarian goverment.

I wouldn't say hypocritical. I'd say cognitively dissonant. Not the same thing.

> It is also hypocritical for civilian gun owners to claim they will use their 2A rights to protect themselves and other citizens from authoritarian government but fail to be vigilant enough to recognize the rise of authoritarianism.

Private firearms ownership is an indirect and implicit threat of violence against tyranny. It may or may not work as such. It might only limit the degree of tyranny. Remember, armed citizens can't organize to commit violence against the state because the state has authority (or a patina of authority) and the ability to bring a great deal of force to bear on any hot spots. The state's ability to bring force to bear is limited though, but only in such a way that a huge number of citizens would have to rise up simultaneously and be patient enough to keep rising as the going gets tough. Therefore I think private firearms ownership can't stop tyranny altogether, but can moderate it. There is no hypocrisy or cognitive dissonance here.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#185

Post by Hasz »

squigz wrote: post #165
Hasz wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know where gun violence comes from, and it's not dudes collecting vintage rifle prototypes from Yugoslavia. about 2/3 of gun deaths in 2022 are suicides. Of homicides, it's mostly young black men. Suicide rates are highest for old white men. https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2024-09/202... We are failing specific people at specific stages of their lives by not offering them opportunity and hope for…

> We know where gun violence comes from, and it's not dudes collecting vintage rifle prototypes from Yugoslavia. I literally said "I'm not blaming gun hobbyists for violence." Thank you for starting off with a terribly bad faith reading of my comment. > If you're a US citizen, gun control is an infringement on your civil rights And this is what I mean by them being connected. Gun hobbyists in the US will argue for it…

> I literally said "I'm not blaming gun hobbyists for violence." Thank you for starting off with a terribly bad faith reading of my comment.

I agree with you, this is not the problem. No bad faith intended.

> Gun hobbyists in the US will argue for it based on their "rights"..."

No quotes on rights. If you don't care about rights or are happy to cede them, then there are all kinds of societal improvements you could make -- say, banning hate speech, lowering or eliminating a presumption of innocence, banning private firearm ownership, etc. However, this is antithetical to how the US is setup and its system of laws. The same arguments used to attack gun control can just as easily be turned on other rights, such as the freedom of speech.

> It's difficult for me to believe that if you remove one of the easiest ways to kill people, violence would just remain the same

It's difficult to run a proper experiment for many reasons. However, I would argue that the concern from voters is not about routine violence (eg gang violence localized to a specific community) but mass killings like Uvalde or Parkland. As we can see in Europe (or even in the US, in New Orleans), you can kill plenty of people with a car, a bomb, a knife, etc. Killing lots of people quickly is not an attribute unique to firearms.

> Because gun ownership is part of your constitution, you can easily make it seem as though those questioning it are attacking the very basis of your country. Seems like a systemic issue to me...

Yes, this is a systematic attack and many Americans see it this way. Governments have only ever moved one direction on gun control -- once the right is eroded, it is gone forever.

> blatantly silly to think that if you give a hopeless population easy access to tools whose entire function is to kill...

Again, the second amendment for everyone. We do not gate rights behind fees, tests, or onerous restrictions. I am interested in preserving (and expanding!) civil liberties for all, while addressing the root causes of gun violence.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#186

Post by scarecrowbob »

mindslight wrote: post #182
scarecrowbob wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is pretty close to my position. If they are trying to close in on the intelligence and police state because it's not vicious enough against folks they don't like (which includes me and a lot of folks I care about) then a "new and improved" CIA / FBI isn't a "good" thing. I generally hate the US gov for it's history of doing objectively evil things (I pass by a former "residential school" every time I drive into…

This whole neofascist movement is fueled by a mistaken belief that dismantling existing power structures will create a stable situation with more freedom, as opposed to the reality that different power structures will eagerly step into the vacuum.

I think that most of the smarter folks I know on the farther and farther left realize that a lot of what we see are "structural" issues, so voting (for establishment folks) stops being a real strategy at some point. In some sense, that philosophically materialist/idealist seems to be one tool for discerning the ideological differences between liberal capitalists and left anti-capitalists.

By contrast it's not surprising to me that as we go the other direction, the far right is less able to understand that these situations are structurally necessary for the operation of the systems that they support. Convincing those folks that it's not simply who is in charge is likely impossible. It will sound stupid, perhaps, but I have heard convincing arguments that the idea that systems are defined by "who is in charge of them" is fundamentally why "antisemitism" ends up being central to both the conspiracy folks and the fascists.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#187

Post by Hasz »

jonathanlb wrote: post #164
Hasz wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We know where gun violence comes from, and it's not dudes collecting vintage rifle prototypes from Yugoslavia. about 2/3 of gun deaths in 2022 are suicides. Of homicides, it's mostly young black men. Suicide rates are highest for old white men. https://publichealth.jhu.edu/sites/default/files/2024-09/202... We are failing specific people at specific stages of their lives by not offering them opportunity and hope for…

I agree with everything you said, except your last sentence. As a parent, and as a gun owner, I'm fine with there being gun control that leads to no more school shootings. And no, you can't depend on a "good guy with a gun" (Uvalde, Parkland). I don't know what the solution is, to be honest, but other countries don't have the school shooting problem the US has.

There is no gun control that leads to no school shootings. It is simply not possible.

The best thing we can do is to address the root cause, and react as quickly as possible when there is a problem. We have police presence at basically every single public arena -- government buildings, hospitals, stadiums, malls, etc; we should have police presence at schools too, along with the training to do their jobs effectively.

The harsh reality is that school shootings make up a vanishingly small number of students who will die of gun violence, let along those that die from any cause.

[The FBI says 105 people](https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2025/03/05/what-the-...), excluding shooters, died in mass shootings in 2023, of which a subset will be students. Even if we assumed every mass shooting victim in 2023 was a student, something like 10x the number of students will die from poisoning, another 10x from suffocation, another 22x from motor vehicle collisions, etc.

I think this is a uniquely American problem because America is a unique country. No other nations have the incredible wealth, diversity, and rights of America, and looking to other countries to emulate is imo, a mistake.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#189

Post by squigz »

Hasz wrote: post #185
squigz wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We know where gun violence comes from, and it's not dudes collecting vintage rifle prototypes from Yugoslavia. I literally said "I'm not blaming gun hobbyists for violence." Thank you for starting off with a terribly bad faith reading of my comment. > If you're a US citizen, gun control is an infringement on your civil rights And this is what I mean by them being connected. Gun hobbyists in the US will argue for it…

> I literally said "I'm not blaming gun hobbyists for violence." Thank you for starting off with a terribly bad faith reading of my comment. I agree with you, this is not the problem. No bad faith intended. > Gun hobbyists in the US will argue for it based on their "rights"..." No quotes on rights. If you don't care about rights or are happy to cede them, then there are all kinds of societal improvements you could ma…

I thank you for once again making my point for me. Good luck.

Re: Exploring the Paramilitary Leaks

#190

Post by squigz »

Ancapistani wrote: post #168
NoMoreNicksLeft wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>that's a cost I think society can stomach. Society believes it can stomach that cost because it is largely irrational, incapable of long-term or worst-case thinking, and utterly oblivious to ground-state reality.

Correct. I always feel the need to preface this statement when I make it here, so here we go: this is in no way meant as a threat or even a statement of my own political beliefs. It is my belief based on being a member of these communities for decades. Any attempt to ban firearms in the United States would result in more death and injury than the problems it is intended to solve. The American people will not give up…

I love this argument. Your little cache of weapons isn't going to do anything against trained soldiers.
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