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Apple M3 Ultra

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Re: Apple M3 Ultra

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is for AI which is going to benefit more from use of metal / NPU than SIMD.

Sure, but larger models that fit in that 512gb memory are going to take a long time to tokenize/detokenize without hardware-accelerated BLAS.

Why would you need BLAS for tokenization/detokenization? Pretty much everyone still uses BBPE which amounts to iteratively applying merges.

(Maybe I'm missing something here.)

Re: Apple M3 Ultra

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're going to overthrow your entire AI workflow to use a different API anyway, surely the AMD Instinct accelerator cards make more sense. They're expensive, but also a lot faster, and you don't need to deal with making your code work on macOS.

I don't think API has any value because writing software is free and hardware for ML is super expensive.

> writing software is free

says who? NVIDIA has essentially entrenched themselves thanks to CUDA

Re: Apple M3 Ultra

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This hardware is really being held back by the operating system at this point. Please elucidate.

No native docker support, no headless management options (enterprise strength), Limited QoS management, lack of robust python support (out of the box), interactive user focused security model.

1. I run Docker and Podman on my Macs.

2. If you mean MDM, there are several good options. Screen sharing and SSH are build in.

3. In what sense?

4. `uv python install whatever` is infinitely better than upgrading on the OS vendor’s schedule.

5. What does that affect?

Re: Apple M3 Ultra

#184
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've been buying and using MBP for 6 or 7 years now, and just assumed I could run Linux on one if I wanted to. I just spent a couple of days trying to get a 2018 MBP working with Linux and found out [edit to clarify] that my other ARM MBP basically won't work. I just want a break from MacOS, I'll be buying a Thinkpad and will probably never come back. This isn't my moaning, I understand it's their market, but if thei…

2018 MBP is Intel unless you're referring to the T2 chip?

I could have written it clearer. I have both, Intel was the first attempt and when I was struggling to get it up without losing one of wifi, audio and onboard keyboard and read that ARM was worse I gave up. Even the best combination I had (no audio but everything else working) would kill bluetooth after a while if wifi was connected to 2.6. I don't like their hardware enough to fight with it.

Re: Apple M3 Ultra

#186
So, what's the question if the M1/M2 Ultra was limited by GPU/NPU or more memory bandwidth at this point?

I'm curious what instruction sets may have been included with the M3 chip that the other two lack for AI.

So far the candidates seem to be NVIDIA digits, Framework Desktop, M1 64gb M2/M3 128gb studio/ultra.

The GPU market isn't competitive enough for the amount of VRAM needed. I was hoping for an Battlemage GPU Model with 24GB that would be reasonably priced and available.

The framework desktop and devices I think a second generation will be significantly better than what's currently on offer today. Rationale below...

For a max spec processor with ram at $2,000, this seems like a decent deal given today's market. However, this might age very fast for three reasons.

Reason 1: LPDDR6 may debut in the next year or two this could bring massive improvements to memory bandwidth and capacity for soldered on memory.

LPDDR6 vs LPDDR5 - Data bus width - 24 bits, 16 bits Burst length - 24 bits, 15 bits Memory bandwidth - Up to 38.4 GB/s, Up to 6.7 GB/s

- Camm ram may or may not be maintain signal integrity as memory bandwidth increases. Until I see it implemented for a AI use-case in a cost-effective manner, I am skeptical.

Reason 2: - It's a laptop chip with limited PCI lanes and reduced power envelope. Theoretically, a desktop chip could have better performance, more lanes, socketable (Although, I don't think I've seen a socketed CPU with soldered RAM)

Reason 3: In addition, what does hardware look like being repurposed in the future compared to alternatives?

- Unlike desktop or server counterparts which can have a higher cpu core count, PCEe/IO Expansion, this processor with its motherboard is limited on re-purposing later down the line as a server to self-host other software besides AI. I suppose could be turned into a overkill, NAS with ZFS and HBA Single Controller Card in new case.

- Buying into the framework desktop is pretty limited based on the form factor. Next generation might be able to include a 16x slot fully populated, a 10G nic. That seems about it if they're going to maintain the backward compatibility philosophy given the case form factor.

Re: Apple M3 Ultra

#187
post #22

Previous model of M2 Ultra had max memory of 192GB. Or 128GB for Pro and some other M3 model, which I think is plenty for even 99.9% of professional task. They now bump it to 512GB . Along with insane price tag of $9499 for 512GB Mac Studio. I am pretty sure this is some AI Gold rush.

Every single AI shop on the planet is trying to figure out if there is enough compute or not to make this a reasonable AI path. If the answer is yes, that 10k is a absolute bargain.

> that 10k is a absolute bargain

The higher end NVidia workstation boxes won’t run well on normal 20amp plugs. So you need to move them to a computer room (whoops, ripped those out already) or spend months getting dedicated circuits run to office spaces.

Re: Apple M3 Ultra

#188

Whoa. M3 instead of M4. I wonder if this was basically binning, but I thought that I had read somewhere that the interposer that enabled this for the M1 chips where not available. That Said, 512GB of unified ram with access to the NPU is absolutely a game changer. My guess is that Apple developed this chip for their internal AI efforts, and are now at the point where they are releasing it publicly for others to use.…

> This hardware is really being held back by the operating system at this point.

Apple could either create a 2U rack hardware and support Linux (and I mean Apple supporting it, not hobbysts), or have a build of Darwin headless that could run on that hardware. But in the later case, we probably wouldn't have much software available (though I am sure people would eventually starting porting software to it, there is already MacPorts and Homebrew and I am sure they could be adapted to eventually run in that platform).

But Apple is also not interested in that market, so this will probably never happen.

Re: Apple M3 Ultra

#189
post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This hardware is really being held back by the operating system at this point. Please elucidate.

I torrent things from two different hosts on my gigabit network. The macos stack literally cannot handle the full bandwidth I have. It fails and the machine needs to be rebooted to fix it. It’s not pretty on the way into this state, either. Other remote connections to the computer are unreliable. On Linux, running the same app in a docker container works perfectly. Transmission is the app.

I get nearly 10Gbps from my NAS to my Mac Studio. It absolutely can handle that bandwidth. It may not handle that specific client well for unrelated reasons.

Re: Apple M3 Ultra

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How is Asahi? For M3 and M4 machines, hardware support is pretty derilict: https://asahilinux.org/docs/M3-Series-Feature-Support/

Thanks, looks like even M1 support has some gaps: https://asahilinux.org/docs/M1-Series-Feature-Support/#table... I assume anything that doesn't have "linux-asahi" is not supported -- or any WIP is not supported. Wish I had the skills to help them. Targeting just one set of architecture, I think Asahi has more chances of success.

It's just not an easy task. I can't help but compare it to the Nouveau project spending years of effort to reverse-engineer just a few GPU designs. Then Nvidia changed their software and hardware architecture, and things went from "relatively hopeful" to "there is no chance" overnight.
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