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Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

swedenherald.com

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Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#181

Post by fulafel »

willvarfar wrote: post #51
pr337h4m wrote: post #41

Signal is headquartered in the US and presumably has no employees in Sweden (and perhaps the entire European Union). There is utterly nothing the Swedish government can do to stop Signal except for pressuring app stores and/or ISP-level censorship. Preemptive surrender is extremely disappointing, especially for a non-profit - there isn’t even any revenue that can be ‘fined’ by the EU!

The app stores are run by companies with a presence in the EU.

You don't need to get Signal from an app store (unless you're on iOS I guess)

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#182

Post by bramhaag »

docdeek wrote: post #56
bramhaag wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, only some claim to "remain committed to offering our users the highest level of security for their personal data" while turning off E2EE cloud storage for an entire country.

What other choice did Apple have? To ignore the law of a country where you operate just because you don't agree with the law is a terrible standard to set.

> Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#183

Post by blueflow »

skybrian wrote: post #117
vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

This principle seems out of touch with most people’s reality: products hardly ever do everything you want and often work against you. If someone has a device that doesn’t do what they want and there’s no setting to change its behavior, replacing it is usually the only practical option. (Or if it’s a problem with an app, they might be able to install a different app.) If there is a free software license, it’s of no di…

I can speak for german law: If you buy something, it becomes your property, and you have full power of disposal ("Verfügungsgewalt") over it. If vendors deny you from exercising this right, they are violating their part of the purchase contract.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#184

Post by cmrdporcupine »

louwrentius wrote: post #84
vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

It may be wrong, but it proves that technology can't beat politics and policy. The issue with Apple caving to UK demands regarding encryption, and now Signal being in a similar situation, shows that you can't just focus on technology and ignore policy and politics. And you'll find out that a ton of people here on HN will care, but most of the public won't. People should take XKCD 538 really to heart (The 5$ wrench on…

> It may be wrong, but it proves that technology can't beat politics and policy.

There's definitely a strain of thought which perceives almost everything in society as being outcroppings of the progress of technology (however you define that), and especially in the 1990s imagined/expected everything to fall over under the mantle of "information wants to be free" etc.

I think you're right that this is an intellectual dead-end. Many of us lived through the 90s hype wave and into now, and have watched things take a complete circle. The Internet didn't transform society into utopia, the real-world dystopia transformed the Internet into a high definition image of itself.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#185

Post by radlad »

TheAmazingRace wrote: post #164
ghaff wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Transacting in Bitcoin is already unattractive to 99%+ of potential users.

In addition, simply taking out the on/off ramps, such as Coinbase, would destroy the utility of cryptocurrency as well, since the grand majority of folks dealing in the stuff are only interested in flipping it for more cash money on the other end by finding the next sucker in the chain. Very few people actually care about the principles of Bitcoin and the like. Maybe the core devs and some very early adopters?

Whether it's useful to the current "grand majority" or not / holds the value it does today is orthogonal to whether the technology can be stopped and whether it still provides value to those who continue to use it.

I did worry this example would be too political, hence including the BitTorrent example as well.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#186

Post by Angostura »

throwaway28409 wrote: post #42
vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

> The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. You are hinting at something important here. Let me strengthen your point: to own an object means to subject it fully to your own will. If the object can act in a way that favors someone else's interests over yours, you do not own it. This is true of pretty much any device running proprietary software. A litmu…

> You are hinting at something important here. Let me strengthen your point: to own an object means to subject it fully to your own will.

Let’s explore that.

If the law says I can’t ride my motorcycle the wrong way down the street, does that mean I don’t own it?

What about if we add traffic cameras that absolutely guarantee I will be prosecuted?

What about it if we add a black box that reports transgressions automatically to the authorities?

What about if the black box automatically cuts power to the engine?

I don’t think ownership is a binary using your criterion, or perhaps it’s simply that different people will put the dividing line in different places.

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#188

Post by [deleted] »

vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

[deleted]

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#189

Post by skybrian »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #169
skybrian wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This principle seems out of touch with most people’s reality: products hardly ever do everything you want and often work against you. If someone has a device that doesn’t do what they want and there’s no setting to change its behavior, replacing it is usually the only practical option. (Or if it’s a problem with an app, they might be able to install a different app.) If there is a free software license, it’s of no di…

Yes, because we largely don't have Free Software. > If there is a free software license, it’s of no direct use to them. It's of indirect use; they could use a modified version of the software that does what they want, created by someone else. This is why you generally don't see user-hostile features in Free Software; someone would just fork the project and edit them out.

The problem is that some forks are malware [1], so switching to a fork by developers you don't know is risky. How do non-technical users learn which software developers to trust?

[1] https://www.securityweek.com/malware-delivered-via-malicious...

Re: Signal to leave Sweden if backdoor law passes

#190

Post by Canada »

throwaway28409 wrote: post #42
vaylian wrote: post #10

There is a reason why Free Software (as in freedom) was invented: To ensure that those who create the software do not overpower those who use the software. The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. And it is wrong, because to be a human in the 21st century means in most cases, that your digital devices and your digital interactions are a core part of wh…

> The idea, that companies or politicians can force the user's machine to work against it's owner, is wrong. You are hinting at something important here. Let me strengthen your point: to own an object means to subject it fully to your own will. If the object can act in a way that favors someone else's interests over yours, you do not own it. This is true of pretty much any device running proprietary software. A litmu…

You don't need to run the server to backdoor the client. You just need access to push updates to the client. It doesn't matter who runs the server.
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