It's easy to criticize captchas. That's why there are so many articles like this, which we all knowingly nod along to as we read. It's much harder to provide productive criticism that leads to an actual improvement over the status quo. (Although it is easy to suggest bad alternatives to captchas, which is why they appear in every comment thread about captchas on Hacker News, including this one.)
The best anyone else has come up with is, "You've typed your password wrong one time. Your account is now disabled, please call a customer service representative at 1-900-TIME-WASTE between the hours of 10:30 AM and 3:30 PM Indian Standard Time. Please note that we are closed on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Sunday, and that we have lunch between 11:00 AM and 3:00 PM."
Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
181–190 of 238 posts
Re: Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
#182One nice thing about recaptcha is that you know those cut off words don't matter (badly OCR'd) and can just enter gibberish for them. But it has gotten to the point that about half of the control words are unintelligible by a human.
Sure, but you shouldn't undermine the mission of successfully recording words that can't be identified. It's a pretty noble goal, actually.
Re: Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
#183Many months into this experiment I barely get 2 spam comments a month on my blog, I totally respect reCAPTCHA, but demanding JavaScript, doing some minimal tests and perhaps an amount of computation (1 sec on iPad) is the FIRST thing we should be doing http://samsaffron.com/archive/2011/10/04/Spam+bacon+sausage+...
For the longest time, my blog's comments were protected by a "captcha" that simply asked the user to type the word "elbow" into a text box. The word never changed and was not obscured in any way. Worked pretty well.
Such solutions do not scale to larger web sites, though.
Re: Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
#184Many months into this experiment I barely get 2 spam comments a month on my blog, I totally respect reCAPTCHA, but demanding JavaScript, doing some minimal tests and perhaps an amount of computation (1 sec on iPad) is the FIRST thing we should be doing http://samsaffron.com/archive/2011/10/04/Spam+bacon+sausage+...
Almost any unique solution will work well for a small site, because it's not worth the effort to program a bot specifically for your system. For the longest time, my blog's comments were protected by a "captcha" that simply asked the user to type the word "elbow" into a text box. The word never changed and was not obscured in any way. Worked pretty well. Such solutions do not scale to larger web sites, though.
Re: Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
#185Turing test passed. ;-)
Re: Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yes of course (and it is not a charity project, either). The fact that you are linking ReCaptcha to a valuable data stream for Google seems to support the my general claim that Google is deriving value from the data stream. And perhaps the collection of that data almost exclusively at times when a single identity can be correlated with a single datum ( i.e. account creation and management) is merely coincidence. But…
No, I'm not. From the wording of your question I thought you didn't know they digitized books, which is a revenue stream already. They might use it for other data indeed.
And the rate of blocking bots doesn't enter into Google's book digitization process.
Re: Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
#187Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, you mean just for that IP? Torify. Cookies? Bots don't need to accept them. Do you have something better?
Would it work to do that by IP, and allow only X different IPs for an account to try to login on a single day? e.g. if you've tried to login with 10 different IPs on that day, you will no longer be able to login that day. (Of course this would mean saving some extra data.) The biggest problem I see is that this means people can lock you out of your account, which is probably unacceptable.
I don't see anything wrong in principle with "account lock out" provided that it doesn't affect existing sessions and provided that you can just ask the site to send an email with a token to reset your password. Spammers can lock a user out, so what. Minor inconvenience. If it's happening a lot to the same user and it's also affecting the user negatively, something extra could be done to minimize lockouts for the actual user (who should be easy to detect by the server through logs and a premise the user isn't trying to hide).
Spammers are able to flood you with "forgot your password?" emails, too. I don't know how often they do it. I had my first wave in after 7 years of the same email just a few months ago mostly from old sites I forgot I even had accounts on.
I'm not really a fan of the exponential backoff idea proposed earlier above, I'd sooner go with the "X tries, then wait" approach. The lockout time should not be more than 24 hours, ideally less. Though one could also set the lockout period to expire when the user's session automatically expires, if there's a current one, but that may be too clever.
I feel that there are really two pieces of advice to give on dealing with spammers for the general case... Advice for low-traffic sites and advice for high-traffic sites. I don't have any advice with high-traffic sites since I have no experience with spam at that level (and by high-traffic I mean thousands to millions of uniques per hour), though I don't think the status quo is good enough. With low-traffic sites spam behavior is easy to detect and create a custom solution against. Custom solutions are often better than the popular stuff just by virtue of not having anyone targeting them specifically, and even if that's the case it's still easier to cat-and-mouse if the main options against spam aren't acceptable. Something as dead-simple as loading your form with javascript (or dynamically changing the URL endpoint when the submit button is clicked to something different than what's reported by the form's html attribute...) stops a lot of bots regardless of a captcha, even though you sacrifice the Lynx users. And in my own anecdotal experience I've had more success (less spam bots getting through and leaving a message) with a captcha like "Please join these two "words" together (without spaces): taeiswovd and brhpugqc" than with ReCaptcha even though it'd take less than a minute to add a parser for mine in a bot program. I used to use an arithmetic question but even the dumb bots are on to that one these days--at least the ones after my comment boxes. (I don't even think they added, they just tried numbers 0-99 and sometimes got lucky.)
Re: Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
#188Re: Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
Would it work to do that by IP, and allow only X different IPs for an account to try to login on a single day? e.g. if you've tried to login with 10 different IPs on that day, you will no longer be able to login that day. (Of course this would mean saving some extra data.) The biggest problem I see is that this means people can lock you out of your account, which is probably unacceptable.
What my bank does (and PayPal too if I remember correctly) is keep track of my IP, and if it changes then it forces me to enter additional data about my account before letting me continue. (This assumes I got the password correct.) I think one or both also may use some cookie(s) to mitigate changing IPs. They may also make use of leaky browser data (like user agent strings etc.) to help identify me; they have the pot…
Re: Captchas Are Becoming Ridiculous
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
What my bank does (and PayPal too if I remember correctly) is keep track of my IP, and if it changes then it forces me to enter additional data about my account before letting me continue. (This assumes I got the password correct.) I think one or both also may use some cookie(s) to mitigate changing IPs. They may also make use of leaky browser data (like user agent strings etc.) to help identify me; they have the pot…
PayPal doesn't ask you for some extra data. It blocks ("limits") your account so you can't actually use it until you provide them with a copy of your utility bill or something. Terrific when you're on vacation and need to make a PayPal payment. That had me so pissed of that I closed my account (which isn't possible whilst it's "limited" unless you manage to get them on the phone -- good luck with that. -- at least yo…