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How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

reuters.com

181–190 of 311 posts

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind). Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

I don't know, the Renault Logan (and the B platform in general) was extremely good from the engineering standpoint. Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to fix. The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there. They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a dif…

I don't mean to claim that Renault is technically incompetent (obv. that's false).

I find that these companies have something very unique about themselves in terms of culture. And you lose a lot when you try to change it.

For eg. a lot of expats in Tokyo have this attitude that Japanese companies are dim-wits and that they have "westernize" and become English-speaking techbros (Rakuten calls this English-nization).

There might be some things that can be emulated better, but the solution always tends to be a bit too... christian, or rather monotheistic (ie . wipe out everything before and mass replace).

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#182
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was merely asking your question about what happens when a country fails. I have no expectation of Germany turning out like South Africa.

Right, I'm trying to find out what people expect to happen when a developed country fails.

Like post WWII Axis nations?

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#183
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right, I'm trying to find out what people expect to happen when a developed country fails.

Like post WWII Axis nations?

I don't think its similar because this time those are not war thorn nations, it's just a period of population decline.

IMHO post communist countries after they got their shit together is closer analogy. They all had their infrastructure built, they had a well educated population and the problem was and its still is that there are not many young people to look after the aging population.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mazda sells an order of magnitude less cars than even newer companies like BYD. In Australia, Mazda has been the 2nd highest selling brand (across all models) for a number of years. Not sure about last 18 months.

Australia is a small market though, so being second there might not help a lot. (I miss the 2010 Mazda2 I drove in Sydney for a few years, was very fun)

Wow. I just checked out a few random other markets including Japan, and it's crazy to me that Mazda isn't doing better. They've got some really nice cars. It's bizarre. I wonder if this is by design or they just can't market for shit?

Full disclosure: I'm a Honda driver and was a Toyota driver for many years before that.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All cars last 20+yr if you give a crap unless they have some fundamental engineering or execution Achilles heel (ecoboost water pump, Toyota frame rust, Hyundai engine problems, etc) that will manifest as a comically not-economical repair when the vehicle is old enough in age to be of fairly low value. Premium cars that aren't so premium as to be disposable (i.e. not a luxury car you're gonna trade in every 3-5yr lik…

I have a Nissan Micra from 1998, working fine. Great little car. I inherited from my grandfather.

I have driven nothing but pre-2008 Nissans for about 20 years.

Not a single major failure across 6 vehicles, except one Nissan Silvia (1992) that I used to race. Not really it's fault, I blew the motor pushing it hard for 3 years. I also crashed my first Silvia into a tree at 16, but it was running fine before that. That's how it got to the tree!

Even the 2007 Pathfinder and current 2003 Stagea are rock solid, and I consider them post-peak for Nissan.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its too bad since Honda has seemed to have totally lost its luster the past decade or so. Honda was Apple to Toyota's Microsoft for a long time, now their cars are bland and undifferentiated, rather than the innovative leaders they used to be.

Uhh, the Odyssey is still best of breed for minivans in the price segment.

Yet still bland and undifferentiated and a minivan.

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind). Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

I don't know, the Renault Logan (and the B platform in general) was extremely good from the engineering standpoint. Cheap, reliable, easy to maintain, easy to fix. The technical competence in building gasoline cars was definitely there. They missed the electric wave sure, but as with any innovations the more competent you are in the previous wave of technology the harder it is to switch to the new one. But it's a dif…

M not sure you can even say they missed the electric wave - the Zoe and Leaf were some of the earliest mass market electric cars

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#188
post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be the classic way in which management types destroy technical companies. Same thing happened a decade back in electronics companies in Japan (Sony comes to mind). Technical competence is generally very hard to judge and often even harder replace. It's not surprising that the same management types are salivating at the thought of replacing people with AI.

Ghosn was trained as an engineer at École des Mines de Paris after a humble background in the 3rd world including continual sickness from unsanitary waterwater. He worked from the bottom up in R&D at Michelin and did the impossible turning it around during hyperinflation period in Brazil. By all estimations he's a genius with as good of chops as anyone could ask for his responsibilities, with a unique set of citizens…

He actually did X-Mines, (École polytechnique then detached to Mines), which means he was in the dozen top science students of his year in France

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#189
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Under Goshn and his close early advisors, Renault-Nissan started working on EVs, launching the Leaf and Zoé. Early, he also managed to streamline production of the two companies, and started to implement management changes that let some workers have more autonomy. The issue is that power got to his head and truly believe he was the second coming of Jesus or something, and stopped improving his companies to rub should…

Boy, that final paragraph sure looks like another automaker CEO…

No he was clearly always an asshole (but I agree he clearly had some genius)

Re: How Nissan and Honda's $60B merger talks collapsed

#190
How did VAG succeed? Because it's the same problems: culture fit, market fit. Nissan kept but focused on e.g. light industrial vehicles, ATVs and military while Honda plays at being Sony/Apple for cars? That could have worked.

But somewhere you need synergies. Common rail, for chassis, gearboxes, engines. Diverge on fit out, but share parts.

Nobody in Oz buys Honda Utes. Loads of Nissan tradie vehicles.

It collapsed because they didn't want to change.

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