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The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

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Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#181

Post by theossuary »

boohoo123 wrote: post #118

There's a simple fix to removing discrimination in hiring practices that no one seems to notice. Remove all demographic questions from the application. Hide the name and gender and attach a applicant ID. It's as easy as that. Every job should be looking for the most qualified individual regardless of race, nationality, religion, and sex. Demographics in the application are a recipe for disaster on both sides of the i…

This is literally one of the things DEI programs push to implement. I have a friend who helps make hiring decisions and this is one of the changes their DEI push included, as well as pulling from a larger pool.

It just shows how much propaganda there is around DEI, you're saying we should get rid of DEI and replace it with the things DEI was trying to do. It really has become the new critical race theory.

Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#182

Post by Manuel_D »

AdamN wrote: post #159
Manuel_D wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, and that's why hiding the fact that the candidate attended an HBCU would avert that kind of bias.

So no colleges and universities on resumes?

You could share data on the college, like the median SAT score of admits or the admissions rate.

And I'm not entirely sure that omitting colleges entirely would be such a bad idea. Colleges apply selective admission criteria all the time, for athletes and legacy admits. Skills based screening would probably work better.

Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#183

Post by roughly »

AdamN wrote: post #159
Manuel_D wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, and that's why hiding the fact that the candidate attended an HBCU would avert that kind of bias.

So no colleges and universities on resumes?

Well, then you have to account for certain jobs and hobbies being coded, as well as word choices in the personal statement. Once you blank all that out, though, we should be good to go.

Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#184

Post by dowager_dan99 »

BoingBoomTschak wrote: post #86
legitster wrote: post #83

This is a fascinating read, but the thing that bugs me about this whole affair is that when this came to light many years ago it was treated as a cheating and recruitment scandal. But only recently has it been reframed as a DEI issue. Taking old, resolved scandals - slapping a coat of culture war paint on it - and then selling it as a new scandal is already a popular MO for state-sponsored propoganda, so we should be…

From an external (not US) PoV, it might also be that DEI was too much of a sacred cow before to call a spade a spade.

> to call a spade a spade

intentional? one of the dumber virtue-signaling "no-nos" from the worst of DEI.

Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#185

Post by daemonologist »

apical_dendrite wrote: post #148

I'm fairly certain this was an example of overfitting and Freedman's Paradox, not deliberate cheating. Let's say you have a completely random data set. You generate a bunch of random variables x1 through xn and a random dependent variable y. Then you poke around and see whether any of the x variables look like they might predict y, so you pick those variables and try to build a model on them. What you end up with is…

I agree that it seems likely that the weird questions and their weighting came from over-fitting as you describe. The cheating allegation though, from my reading, is that the "correct" answers were leaked and then disseminated by the leakee(s). (And that this was particularly impactful because it was unlikely that you would pass the overfit test otherwise.)

Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#186

Post by Galatians4_16 »

ryandrake wrote: post #156
hitekker wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a misreading of the article. This scandal was not just "cheating and recruitment" but forcing "Diversity" with a side of "Equity". To quote the facts: > The NBCFAE continued to pressure the FAA to diversify, with its members meeting with the DOT, FAA, Congressional Black Caucus, and others to push for increased diversity among ATCs. After years of fiddling with the research and years of pressure from the NBCFA…

I don't think I even know what "DEI" is anymore. Political pundits have turned it into a generic slur, a boogeyman that vaguely means "I have to work with minorities now??" I've always thought it simply meant "drawing from the widest possible candidate funnel, including instead of excluding people who have traditionally been shut out." At least that's how all of my training sessions at work frame it. But, like everyt…

DEI: Diversity Equity Inclusion

Diversity of race (encouraging racism), equity of income (encouraging envy), inclusion of "the marginalized" (discouraging free association)

Except, as a government program, this turns from mere encouragement to forcing the issues, under threat of fines, imprisonment, and ultimately death.

In the words of famous actor Morgan Freeman; "If you want to end racism, stop talking about it." (1)

1) https://atlantablackstar.com/2024/06/16/morgan-freeman-doubl...

Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#187

Post by Workaccount2 »

ryandrake wrote: post #156
hitekker wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a misreading of the article. This scandal was not just "cheating and recruitment" but forcing "Diversity" with a side of "Equity". To quote the facts: > The NBCFAE continued to pressure the FAA to diversify, with its members meeting with the DOT, FAA, Congressional Black Caucus, and others to push for increased diversity among ATCs. After years of fiddling with the research and years of pressure from the NBCFA…

I don't think I even know what "DEI" is anymore. Political pundits have turned it into a generic slur, a boogeyman that vaguely means "I have to work with minorities now??" I've always thought it simply meant "drawing from the widest possible candidate funnel, including instead of excluding people who have traditionally been shut out." At least that's how all of my training sessions at work frame it. But, like everyt…

>including instead of excluding people who have traditionally been shut out

I think that is the crux of the issue right there. It's taken as a "sky-is-blue" level fact that everyone is equal in all regards, and therefore any inequality in outcome is a function of bigoted policy at some level. This is despite a mountain of evidence to the contrary, which kind of elevates DEI to an ideological position rather than a logical one, and arguably undermines the confidence of people who would ostensibly be considered "DEI Hires".

Companies have largely side-stepped this however, because underneath it all, they still want the most productive workers, regardless of their labels. So they implement a farcical DEI to keep up appearances, while still allowing hiring of whoever is deemed the most productive for a team.

Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#188

Post by clcaev »

galacticaactual wrote: post #170
healsdata wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is easy until you account for the real world. A disabled person who has to request accommodations for the application process will immediately be outed for having a disability. The same applies for people who speak different languages. Beyond that, the application is only one place in which discrimination occurs. - It also happens during interviews which are much harder to anonymize. - It also happens in t…

[flagged]

> A disabled person should probably not be manning ATC.

This depends upon the disability and what reasonable accommodations could be made.

Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#189

Post by Molitor5901 »

iamleppert wrote: post #97

Instead of bickering over who gets a job that fundamentally should be automated by now, they should focus on developing technology that doesn't rely on people. Or at least uses automation for 95% of the job and delegates to a person only when rare exceptions arise. ATC is ripe for disruption from AI, and now that we have LLMs and speech models on par with human ability, its a short walk in the park to imagine a fully…

They are, this is supposedly part of the "Nexgen" air traffic system. I think eventually airlines will be forced into greater automation. When a possible collision scenario arises, the plane will take over and evade on it's own. Airplanes will increasingly become automated and pilots wait for emergencies.

Re: The FAA’s Hiring Scandal

#190

Post by Manuel_D »

apical_dendrite wrote: post #148

I'm fairly certain this was an example of overfitting and Freedman's Paradox, not deliberate cheating. Let's say you have a completely random data set. You generate a bunch of random variables x1 through xn and a random dependent variable y. Then you poke around and see whether any of the x variables look like they might predict y, so you pick those variables and try to build a model on them. What you end up with is…

> I'm fairly certain this was an example of overfitting and Freedman's Paradox, not deliberate cheating.

The answers to the biographical questionnaire - which screened out 90% of applicants - were leaked to ethnic affinity groups. If a select group of being being provided with the correct answers isn't cheating, I don't know what is.

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