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Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

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Re: Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But yes, Bun's current strategy is "churn out code" whereas Deno has a different pace and approach. They're trying to build different things, and have a lot less catch-up to play than Bun. Are they trying to build different things? I feel like they're direct competitors. Are you a Deno user? Curious what your experience has been

Well e.g. JSR is different to anything I've seen from the Bun team, so yes. I didn't mean Deno and Bun's core offerings are different, but that there are differences in what they're each applying time and effort to. I'm a Node user. I haven't yet seen a compelling reason to switch that justifies potential compatibility/ecosystem issues.

Deno 2 was a major release entirely about shoring up Node compatibility. That's arguably a big reason for why Bun seems to have a higher velocity right now of the trio. Deno put in a ton of engineering into Node/npm compatibility, it shows, and right now I would recommend trying Deno as having suprisingly few compatibility/ecosystem issues remaining.

(Deno has not stayed entirely still, other new features were added outside of that compatibility effort, but Bun doesn't have Node compatibility as much as a goal today and so gets the fast mover award.)

I started using Deno in hobby projects because I like the out-of-the-box defaults a lot better than Node (deno.json is a lot simpler than a lot of the cruft that package.json has acquired, but also includes more things in one place like out of the box eslint support [deno lint] and prettier-equivalent [deno fmt]). Also, Deno Deploy has a generous free tier and that's a healthy incentive for hobby projects that want a modest database (Deno KV) and basic task processing queues.

Re: Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

#182
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mmm, one of the most memorable stories I've ever read on HN is about Oracle being bad at tech. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18442941

I remember that one!

Yeah, this is legendary comment

Re: Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

#183
post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising Larry Ellison. You need to think of Larry Ellison the way you think of a lawnmower. You don't anthropomorphize your lawnmower, the lawnmower just mows the lawn, you stick your hand in there and it'll chop it off, the end. You don't think 'oh, the lawnmower hates me' -- lawnmower doesn't give a shit about you, lawnmower can't hate you. Don't anthropomorphize the lawnmo…

I started to dislike that quote somewhat. Why should we celebrate the fact that our society doesn't place moral pressure onto executives? Why should we find it acceptable that this is the status quo?

I am glad to see that many people are being correcting you, but just to put a sharp point on it: I am using that metaphor to condemn Ellison, not to condone or accept him.

Unfortunately, since that talk in 2011, what was an aberration (albeit a broadly unspoken one) has since -- tragically -- become the norm. I refuse to accept this, however: I will continue to speak my truth about the moral decay in tech, and why we must hold ourselves to a higher standard.[0][1][2][3][4] And I obviously agree with your indignation that poor corporate behavior should not be the status quo!

[0] Principles of Technology Leadership, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9QMGAtxUlAc (2017)

[1] Andreessen's Corollary: Ethical Dilemmas in Software Engineering, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wtvQZijPzg (2019)

[2] (Anti-)application Video for YC120, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=px9OjW7GB0Q (2019)

[3] Coming Of Age, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VzdVSMRu16g (2022)

[4] Intelligence is not Enough, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQfJi7rjuEk (2023)

Re: Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

#184
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Man, they ought to lose Java on generic-ness, let alone JavaScript. Java was invented by Sun and literally nobody cares (nor is particularly happy) that Oracle currently makes a version of the JDK. JavaScript is made by almost everyone in tech except Oracle. If the courts don’t strike down this trademark it’ll be nothing but blatant corporatism.

> Java was invented by Sun and literally nobody cares (nor is particularly happy) that Oracle currently makes a version of the JDK. This is honestly an insanity level take. Oracle is the main contributor to OpenJdk. OpenJdk is the most widely used implementation of Java and Java is in the top 3 most used programming languages in the world. Thousands of developers and companies make their livelihoods off of Oracle and…

> let’s not forget Oracle was the one to completely open source OpenJdk under the GPL

Technically true, but isn't that a bit misleading? The open-sourcing started years before Oracle's acquisition of Sun, and by the time Oracle got their hands on it the process was essentially finished - except for a single optional library.

Oracle wasn't the driving force behind the open-sourcing, and I doubt they would have even been able to stop the process - let alone reverse it - if they wanted to.

Re: Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well e.g. JSR is different to anything I've seen from the Bun team, so yes. I didn't mean Deno and Bun's core offerings are different, but that there are differences in what they're each applying time and effort to. I'm a Node user. I haven't yet seen a compelling reason to switch that justifies potential compatibility/ecosystem issues.

Deno 2 was a major release entirely about shoring up Node compatibility. That's arguably a big reason for why Bun seems to have a higher velocity right now of the trio. Deno put in a ton of engineering into Node/npm compatibility, it shows, and right now I would recommend trying Deno as having suprisingly few compatibility/ecosystem issues remaining. (Deno has not stayed entirely still, other new features were added…

I also used Deno for some side projects before 1.0 and I really like it. Especially its focus on web stanrards, and yes, being an all-in-one tool. But I don't have the time or inclination for a lot of side projects these days.

I actually feel much more warmly to Deno than Bun, and would use it if I felt like it made sense. I tried to avoid advocating either way in my former posts in this thread. But regardless of my personal feelings, at work pragmatism rules the day.

Re: Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

#186
post #61
post #22

Calling EMCAScript JavaScript was a huge mistake that is still biting us.

That's anachronistic: it was called JavaScript long before the ECMA specification and the ECMAScript name appeared. That the JavaScript name is dumb is pretty much universally agreed on.

ECMAScript is what people who want to avoid Oracle’s trademark say. Being anachronistic is irrevelant as long as Oracle has the trademark.

Re: Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

#187
post #22

Calling EMCAScript JavaScript was a huge mistake that is still biting us.

OR alternatively, just not coming up with a better alternative name that ECMAScript. If there was a catchier alternative name that was less awkward to pronounce, people might more happily have switched over.

[deleted]

Re: Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

#188
post #22

Calling EMCAScript JavaScript was a huge mistake that is still biting us.

OR alternatively, just not coming up with a better alternative name that ECMAScript. If there was a catchier alternative name that was less awkward to pronounce, people might more happily have switched over.

Here is a novel idea. Just pronounce ECMA as a 2 syllable word using classical Latin pronunciation. Ecma becomes just as catchy as Java when pronounced that way. For English speakers who do not know classical Latin, just read this:

Eck-Ma-Script

Here is Eck for those who do not know:

https://youtu.be/cqsDlZAK104

As for Ma, it is the second half of mama. That is actually /ɛkmɑskɹɪpt/ rather than /ekmaskɹɪpt/, but it is close enough.

Re: Oracle justified its JavaScript trademark with Node.js–now it wants that ignored

#189
post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OR alternatively, just not coming up with a better alternative name that ECMAScript. If there was a catchier alternative name that was less awkward to pronounce, people might more happily have switched over.

Here is a novel idea. Just pronounce ECMA as a 2 syllable word using classical Latin pronunciation. Ecma becomes just as catchy as Java when pronounced that way. For English speakers who do not know classical Latin, just read this: Eck-Ma-Script Here is Eck for those who do not know: https://youtu.be/cqsDlZAK104 As for Ma, it is the second half of mama. That is actually /ɛkmɑskɹɪpt/ rather than /ekmaskɹɪpt/, but it i…

I was under the impression that this was the pronounciation that sounded like a skin disease.
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