Live data from Hacker News

Life is more than an engineering problem

lareviewofbooks.org

181–190 of 257 posts

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Creativity" in the sense of coming up with something new is trivial to implement in computers, and has long been solved. Take some pattern - of words, of data, of thought. Perturb it randomly. Done. That's creativity. Formal Proof Systems aren't even nearly close to completion, and for patterns we don't have a strong enough formal system to fully represent the problem space. If we take the P=NP problem, that likely…

Whatever the underlying "real" pattern is, doesn't really matter. We don't need to represent it. People learn to understand it implicitly, without ever seeing some formal definition spelled out - and learn it well enough that if you take M works to classify as "creative" or "not", then pick N people at random and ask each of them to classify each of the works, you can expect high degree of agreement. LLMs aren't lean…

As far as I can tell, I think you are interchanging the ability to recognize creativity with the ability to be creative. Humans seem to have the ability to make creative works or ideas that are not entirely derivative from a given data set or fit the criteria of some pre-existing pattern.

That is why I mentioned Kuhn and paradigm shifts. The architecture of LLMs do not seem capable of making lateral moves or sublations that are by definition not derivative or reducible to its prior circumstance, yet humans do, even though the exact way we do so is pretty mysterious and wrapped up in the difficulties in understanding consciousness.

To claim LLMs can or will equal human creativity seems to imply we can clearly define not only what creativity is, but also consciousness and also how to make a machine that can somehow do both. Humans can be creative prima facie, but to think we can also make a computer do the same thing probably means you have an inadequate definition of creativity.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I see absolutely zero wrong with that statement. What he said is indeed much more reasoned and intelligent than the average foolish AI hype i've often found here, written by people who try to absurdly redefine the obvious, complex mystery that is consciousness into some reductionist notion of it being anything that presents the appearance of reasoning through technical tricks. Chiang has it exactly right with his dou…

> Chiang has it exactly right with his doubts, and the notion that pattern recognition is little different from the deeply complex navigation of reality we living things do is the badly misguided notion. How do you know this?

The same way that we know interpolation of a linear regression is not the same as the deeply complex navigation of reality we do as living things.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If I write a book that contains Einstein's theory of relativity by virtue of me copying it, did I create the theory? Did my copying of it indicate anything about my understanding of it? Would you be justified to think the next book I write would have anything of original value? No, but you described a `cp` command, not an LLM. "Creativity" in the sense of coming up with something new is trivial to implement in comp…

> For an idea to be considered creative, it has to match a very complex... wait for it... pattern. If we could predefine what would count as creativity as some specific pattern, then I'm not sure that would be what I would call creative, and certainly wouldn't be an all-inclusive definition of creativity. Nor is creativity merely creating something new by perturbing data randomly as you mentioned above. While LLMs mi…

My take on Kuhn's paradigm shift is that it's still incremental progress, but the shift happens at a meta level. I.e., for the scientific example, you need some accumulated amount of observations and hypotheses before the paradigm shift can happen, and while the science "before" and "after" may look hugely different, it's still the case that the insight causing the shift is still incremental. In the periods before paradigm shifts, the science didn't stay still, waiting for a lone genius to make a big conceptual leap that randomly happened to hit paydirt -- if we could do such probability-defying miracles, we'd have special relativity figured out by Ancient Greeks. No, the science just kept accumulating observations and insights, narrowing down the search space until someone (usually several someones around the world, at the same time) was in the right place and context to see the next step and take it.

This kind of follows from the fact that, even if the paradigm-shifting insight was caused by some miracle feat of a unique superhuman genius, it still wouldn't shift anything until everyone else in the field was able to verify the genius was right, that they found the right answer, as oppose to a billion different possible wrong answers. To do that, the entire field had to have accumulated enough empirical evidence and theoretical understanding to already be within one or two "regular smart scholar" leaps from that insight.

With art, I have less experience, but my gut instinct tells me that even there, "artistic inspiration" can be too big a leap from what was before, as otherwise other people would not recognize or appreciate it. Also, unlike science, the definition of "art" is self-referential: art is what people recognize as art.

Still, I think you make a good point here, and convinced me that potential for creativity of LLMs, in their current architecture, is limited and below that of humans. You said:

> While LLMs might be capable of some forms of creativity depending on how you define it, I think it remains to be seen how LLMs' current architecture could on its own accomplish the kinds of creativity implicit in scientific progress in the Kuhnian sense of a paradigm shift or in what some describe as a leap of artistic inspiration.

I think the limit stems strictly from LLMs being trained off-line. I believe LLMs could go as far as making the paradigm-shifting "Kuhnian leap", but they wouldn't be able to increment on it further. Compared to humans, LLMs are all "system 1" and almost none "system 2" - they rely on "intuition"[0], which heavily biases them towards things they've learned before. In a wake of a paradigm shift, a human can make themselves gradually unlearn their own intuitions. LLM's can't, without being retrained. Because of that, the forms of creativity that involve making a paradigm-shifting leap and making a few steps forward from it are not within reach of any current model.

--

[0] - LLMs basically output things that seem most likely given what came before; I think this is the same phenomenon as when humans think and say what "feels like best" in context. However, we can pause and override this; LLMs can't, because they're just run in a forward pass - they neither have an internal loop, nor are they trained for the ability to control an external one.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whatever the underlying "real" pattern is, doesn't really matter. We don't need to represent it. People learn to understand it implicitly, without ever seeing some formal definition spelled out - and learn it well enough that if you take M works to classify as "creative" or "not", then pick N people at random and ask each of them to classify each of the works, you can expect high degree of agreement. LLMs aren't lean…

As far as I can tell, I think you are interchanging the ability to recognize creativity with the ability to be creative. Humans seem to have the ability to make creative works or ideas that are not entirely derivative from a given data set or fit the criteria of some pre-existing pattern. That is why I mentioned Kuhn and paradigm shifts. The architecture of LLMs do not seem capable of making lateral moves or sublatio…

I wrote a long response wrt. Kuhn under your earlier comment, but to summarize it here: I believe LLMs can make lateral moves, but they will find it hard to increment on them. That is, they can make a paradigm-shifting creative leap itself, but they can't then unlearn the old paradigm on the spot - their fixed training is an attractor that'll keep pulling them back.

As for:

> As far as I can tell, I think you are interchanging the ability to recognize creativity with the ability to be creative.

I kind of am, because I believe that the two are intertwined. I.e. "creativity" isn't merely an ability to make large conceptual leaps, or "lateral moves" - it's the ability to make a subset of those moves that will be recognized by others as creative, as opposed to recognized as wrong, or recognized as insane, or recognized as incomprehensible.

This might apply more to art than science, since the former is a moving target - art is ultimately about matching subjective perceptions of people, where science is about matching objective reality. A "too creative" leap in science can still be recognized as "creative" later if it's actually correct. With art, whether "too creative" will be eventually accepted or forever considered absurd, is unpredictable. Which is to say, maybe we should not treat these two types of "creativity" as the same thing in the first place.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

AI certainly won't be intelligent while it has episodic responses to queries with no ability to learn from or even remember the conversation without it being fed back through as context. This is the current case for LLM models. Token prediction != Intelligence no matter how intelligent it may seem. I would say adaptability is a fundamental requirement of intelligence.

>AI certainly won't be intelligent while it has episodic responses to queries with no ability to learn from or even remember the conversation without it being fed back through as context. Thank God no one at the AI labs is working to remove that limitation!

And yet, it is still a current limitation and relevant to all current claims of LLM intelligence.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#186
post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more that if you actually work with LLMs they will display reasoning. It's not particularly good or deep reasoning (I would generally say they have a superhuman amount of knowledge but are really quite unintelligent), but it is more than simply recall.

Waters are often muddied here by our own psychology. We (as a species) tend to ascribe intelligence to things that can speak. Even more so when someone (or thing in this case) can not just speak, but articulate well. We know these are algorithms, but how many people fall in love or make friends over nothing but a letter or text message? Capabilities for reasoning aside, we should all be very careful of our perception…

>we should all be very careful of our perceptions of intelligence based solely on a machines or algorithms apparent ability to communicate.

I don't think that's merely an irrational compulsion. Communication can immediately demonstrate intelligence, and I think it quite clearly has, in numerous ways. The benchmarks out there cover a reasonable range of measurements that aren't subjective, and there's clear yes-or-no answers to whether the communication is showing real ways to solve problems (e.g. change a tire, write lines of code, solving word problems, critiquing essays), where the output proves it in the first instance.

Where there's an open question is in whether you're commingling the notion of intelligence with consciousness, or identifying intelligence with AGI, or with "human like" uniqueness, or some other special ingredient. I think your warning is important and valid in many contexts (people tend to get carried away when discussing plant "intelligence", and earlier versions of "AI" like Eliza were not the real deal, and Sophia the robot "granted citizenship" was a joke).

But this is not a case, I think where it's a matter of intuitions leading us astray.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#187
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OK, so I asked ChatGPT how to plant potatoes on Mars... ================================================= Planting potatoes on Mars would be a pretty fascinating (and challenging) task! While Mars has conditions that make growing traditional crops difficult—like low temperatures, low atmospheric pressure, and a lack of oxygen—scientists have been experimenting with ways to grow plants in Martian-like conditions. Here…

What is this supposed to prove? The question isn’t particular novel. There are decades of speculative terraforming discussions on the internet that you can search via Google, especially after the Martian book and movie.

To me this proves that LLMs are hallucinating.

None of these have any depth and most of the stuff it says are absurd.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#188

Chiang makes some insightful points, e.g. about what we mean by magic. Then I come to > [LLMs] can get better at reproducing patterns found online, but they don’t become capable of actual reasoning; it seems that the problem is fundamental to their architecture. and wonder how an intelligent person can still think this, can be so absolute about it. What is "actual" reasoning here? If an AI proves a theorem is it only…

If I write a book that contains Einstein's theory of relativity by virtue of me copying it, did I create the theory? Did my copying of it indicate anything about my understanding of it? Would you be justified to think the next book I write would have anything of original value? I think what he is trying to say is that LLMs current architecture seems to mainly work by understanding patterns in the existing body of kno…

>If I write a book that contains Einstein's theory of relativity by virtue of me copying it, did I create the theory? Did my copying of it indicate anything about my understanding of it? Would you be justified to think the next book I write would have anything of original value?

If you, after copying the book, could dynamically answer questions about the theory, it's implications, and answer variations of problems or theoretical challenges in ways that reflect mainstream knowledge, I think that absolutely would indicate understanding of it. I think you are basically making Searle's chinese room argument.

>But it is clear humans are capable of creativity and reasoning that are not reducible to mere pattern matching and this is the sense of reasoning that LLMs are not currently capable of.

Why is that clear? I think the reasoning for that would be tying it to a notion "the human experience", which I don't think is a necessary condition for intelligence. I think nothing about finding patterns is "mere" insofar as it relates to demonstration of intelligence.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#189
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I’m a massive Chiang fan but I’ve told everyone to skip “The Lifecycle of Software Objects” when recommending the Exhalation collection, though I feel it’s only getting more relevant.

Why? I found that story fantastic

My wife and I both thought the pacing was glacial. The subject matter was also pretty depressing (not unusual with his stories) and I didn't think the payoff was that great tbh.

Overall, it's a fantastic book though.

Re: Life is more than an engineering problem

#190
post #34

I agreed with almost all of it until: >My stance on this has probably shifted in a negative direction over time, primarily because of my growing awareness of how often technology is used for wealth accumulation. I don’t think capitalism will solve the problems that capitalism creates, so I’d be much more optimistic about technological development if we could prevent it from making a few people extremely rich. What's…

If you genuinely want to know: read Karl Marx.
Post reply on HN