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Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

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Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#181

Post by yakz »

ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote: post #158
brookst wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Innuendo is a weak argument. Show evidence for your claims; it is not sufficient to demand other people somehow prove your feelings are wrong.

The evidence is shortages and safety incidents and that hiring scandal. Now we're able to use instinct and "innuendo" (as you call it) to find more rot

But what evidence is there that the shortage was caused by those 'DEI' policies? For example, in 2013 the FAA Academy was shut down for most of the year (April - December) due to the sequester. They had planned to hire more than 1300 controllers that year but hired fewer than 600.

Additionally, part of the changes that brought along the biographical questionnaire had another major change: they opened up positions to the general public--meaning a candidate didn't need to go through one of the college-affiliated programs anymore. However, that also meant that people had to find their way through the on-boarding process, which at least initially was not well developed and many candidates failed to complete the necessary steps to move the process along.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#182

Post by RandomBacon »

gavinhoward wrote: post #128
onlyrealcuzzo wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They won't cut traffic for the same reason they are understaffed: money. Raise pay until you have enough staff. It's really not that simple. It's a 3-year training process. There's really nothing that's going to get you adequately staffed in the short term. Sure, that could solve the problem medium term.

ATC-wannabe here. I can't be ATC anymore because I'm too old. I can't even start. That age limit needs to change. And yes, more pay.

The hiring age limit is due to the mandatory retirement age (56).

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#183

Post by sangnoir »

SoftTalker wrote: post #179
sangnoir wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How realistic is it to have ATC performed by an AI? Not very. For safety-critical systems, you probably want something deterministic, and doesn't break when faced with novel situations. Solvers are probably a better solution than ML approaches, but they can't capture every possible constraint, such as airplane that can only make left-handed turns because of equipment failure.

> For safety-critical systems, you probably want something deterministic, and doesn't break when faced with novel situations. Humans are not deterministic and can break for many reasons. It's not plausible that an AI could handle "route this aircraft for landing without any right turns" ?

> Humans are not deterministic and can break for many reasons.

Yes. Humans can also self-evaluate about their state, and have culpability. It not surprising that non-humans are held to a different standard.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#184

Post by brandonmenc »

brookst wrote: post #94
gotoeleven wrote: post #88

Please just entertain a hypothetical: If it turns out that the FAA was hiring much more slowly than it needed to be because it was unable to reach its DEI goals, can we all agree that we should stop doing DEI for important things?

Sure, if you’ll also entertain a non-hypothetical that DEI does not mean hiring quotas where you refuse to fill open spots, it means proactively reaching out to find talent in non-traditional areas (e.g. doing a job fair at an urban vocational school in addition to the usual ones at mostly-white colleges). And, if for some reason it turns out that the FAA was doing a terrible job of DEI and somehow was trying to meet…

> DEI does not mean hiring quotas where you refuse to fill open spots, it means proactively reaching out to find talent in non-traditional areas

I've worked at companies that do exactly this with quotas of a minimum number of underrepresented candidates who must be interviewed before filling the position, even if the positions all end up going to white or asian men.

It can take a very long time to fill a position under those rules.

I don't think this is a bad policy in principle, but an unintended consequence is often understaffing in the short to medium term.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#185

Post by giantg2 »

viraptor wrote: post #174
giantg2 wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'“run a mental simulation and anticipate second order effects” are uncommon skill.' There are literally people who are innately unable to do this (run mental simulations). I wonder what the percentage is though.

Did you use the right word there? Nobody's born with that ability.

You don't have to possess it as an infant for it to be innate. You don't have color vision when hour born either.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#186

Post by giantg2 »

cogman10 wrote: post #178
giantg2 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment assumes the current system can be scaled indefinitely. But you also acknowledge that we can't currently fill the staffing. I also explicitly called out that the modernization might not be tech changes but procedure changes (realistically it would likely be procedure changes made possible through tech). Doing something to distribute information differently could result in redundancy such that if the comme…

> Your comment assumes the current system can be scaled indefinitely. Why couldn't it be? We need fewer ATC than we need pilots, by a long shot. The actual requested new hires for ATC is in the range of 2k (with 1k expected to stay on staff). With roughly a 120k salary, and assuming all 2k stay on-board that's what, an additional $200mil needed to fully fund? Meanwhile, the airline industry had a $30b net profit, so…

"I find it really hard to believe there's not 3 more in the area that couldn't handle being an ATC operator."

They might be capable, but why would they want to?

"Why couldn't it be?"

Things like coordination and communication in high traffic environments don't scale well. Finding efficiencies in the procedures and systems can eliminate potential miscommunication and missed handoffs.

"And it's not like we don't already have 99% of the existing buildings, infrastructure, and computers already setup. It's literally just the personnel that's lacking."

Actually only some airports have been upgraded while others are waiting. Do you think another person would have prevented this incident? From the recordings and facts so far, it doesn't seem like it.

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#187

Post by giantg2 »

nradov wrote: post #168
giantg2 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So why didn't it work?

This article has a good explanation of TCAS limits. https://www.twz.com/news-features/heres-what-air-traffic-col...

Yeah, so similar to what I said, the transponder didn't work with that system as that article speculates the UH-60 didn't have it. My suggestion was that you could display what ATC has, hence the data distribution part of my comment. But I guess we could just accept what the article tells us that it would be too dangerous to display that info at lower altitudes and allow pilots to make the call and that we just have to live with these incidents then...

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#189

Post by kylehotchkiss »

linuxftw wrote: post #70

It seems like there are shortages in every field according to the media. Shortage in tech workers, shortage in doctors and nurses, shortage of air traffic controllers. Shortages all around. Here's how to instantly cure shortages of ATCs: Each airline is responsible for staffing N ATCs per scheduled flight at a given airport, calculated on a yearly basis.

We could just triple ATC training in the military and take leads from there. Airlines don’t have the correct incentives especially at airports which have light commercial and heavy educational traffic

Re: Over 90% of U.S. airport towers are understaffed, data shows

#190

Post by ahmeneeroe-v2 »

yakz wrote: post #181
ahmeneeroe-v2 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The evidence is shortages and safety incidents and that hiring scandal. Now we're able to use instinct and "innuendo" (as you call it) to find more rot

But what evidence is there that the shortage was caused by those 'DEI' policies? For example, in 2013 the FAA Academy was shut down for most of the year (April - December) due to the sequester. They had planned to hire more than 1300 controllers that year but hired fewer than 600. Additionally, part of the changes that brought along the biographical questionnaire had another major change: they opened up positions to…

I'm arguing that DEI/"biographical" standards are indicative of greater rot. The one and only priority of the FAA should be the safe and efficient operation of our nation's airways.

That we would sacrifice any amount of safety/efficiency in pursuit of other goals is a major problem.

I also apply this thinking to other fed gov programs (eg NSF, DoD, etc)

Edit: in other words, how many lives should we sacrifice in our civilian air travel to achieve equity?

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