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The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

kranga.notion.site

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Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#181
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am active in DACH space since 2003, and I am surprised that isn't between 50k and 60k for a junior position. More to you, but that isn't a common entry level, at least for companies whose main business isn't selling software.

DACH is like the reverse Silicon Valley?

Including healthcare, vacation days, maternity leave, no calls after work or during vacations, not being on call unless paid for and is on the contract, unions,...

Yep, the exact opposite.

Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#182

What a genuinely terrible interview. Seems like a great way to learn absolutely nothing about the candidate. I would have walked out half way through. These types of questions are very telling of an organization which is extremely insecure in its own abilities. For anyone who is a somewhat experienced programmer it is not hard to tell if someone else knows what he is talking about. You do not need to waste 45 minutes…

In general, any made up problem (i.e., with no real utility) is just a puzzle and I would prefer to walk out unless I do need the/a job.

What a pity when interviewers can't even think of a real world problem for an interview. Most interviewers are like that.

No wonder, the industry has the candidates solve various coding problems, and once hired, all the candidates end up dealing with is company politics or other slowdowns. Not once in my career, a debate or an issue has happened because of the type of problems brought in interviews.

Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#183

I predict that very soon you are going to be offered a remote job paying more than €50,000/year. That’s due to this excellent post about your excellent abilities and reasoning appearing on HN. ¡Mucha suerte!

That isn’t much money, even for Europe

Median household income in the UK is €41k (£34.5k).

Top 5% richest income in UK is €81.3k (£68.4k).

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/personal...

Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#184
This is a horrible interview process. I’m not even going to comment on the salary other than that company must be quite full of themselves to offer that low and give a stupid technical test that proves nothing.

Hazing-style technical tests are just dumb and this absolutely qualifies. On top of that, I hate technical interviews that tell you that you can’t search the internet or use toolsets that you would use daily in your job. Why do companies waste everyone’s time on exercises that are not representative of the work/working conditions?

When I ran a hiring round last year I spent a good chunk of time putting together a test/process that tried to closely mirror the type of code/problems you would be solving as an IC. I had almost every candidate (even the ones we passed on) commented on the process and how it was no-nonsense and letting them use whatever tool/resource/etc they wanted to solve it made it less stressful.

I even told people they were free to use LLM/AIs. After competing the base test (which they did without us watching, it’s an easy base problem) we asked candidates to modify the code to handle one more use-case (very simple, nothing like the silly rules the OP was given) and it was very clear which people understood the code they/the AI had written vs the ones that could prompt for a solution but didn’t understand it and thus failed to modify it to account for the new use-case (or struggled heavily for something that was a 1-3 line fix depending on how you implemented the original code).

I truly despise the hiring process from both sides. Both parties are asked to make life-altering decisions on very little data. We had a 4-step interview process:

* Introduction, ask basic questions, get to know you

* Technical test and problem solving test (the problem solving test was talking through a real issue we had run into, asking you to talk through possible ways to solve it. There is no "right" answer or rather there are multiple right answers)

* Debugging test, we produce code with bugs in it, you find/fix all the bugs

* Final interview with owners of the company

Last time I talked about this in HN I had at least 1 person complain about how long the process was. Normally we'd get through it in 2 weeks or less with a candidate (depending on scheduling) and it was a total of about 5-6hr (depending on how long the tests took). I'm not a fan of long and drawn out interview processes, but this was the bare minimum process I could come up with that would test candidates in the areas that we cared about. Also, I wanted to give ourselves multiple chances to interact with the interviewee as some people came across great in the first few rounds, and by the later rounds issues had started to surface.

Is 6hr really a crazy amount of time to spend deciding if you want to commit to 40hrs a week to a company for potentially years of your life? Yes, yes, yes, I know you can leave after a week if you are unhappy and I know the company can let you go after a week if they are unhappy but it's never that easy and switching jobs is hard/painful/stressful (as is firing someone). I am strong opposed to the "just hire them and fire them quickly if it doesn't work out", in fact I find it morally repugnant to play with people's lives in that way. Also, I assume the people who suggest such a corse of action are not the ones that have to onboard new hires (a process that is very involved and takes a lot of time, for me at least).

This was an interesting post for how to solve FizzBuzz in an unorthodox and just "cool" way but this test tells you nothing. In fact, if a developer wrote code trying to be this clever, I would reject it at PR time. It's cool for code-golfing but LoC is always a stupid measurement when it comes to maintainable code.

I wish the OP the best of luck finding a job that doesn't make them jump through hoops like this again.

Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#185

From a lot of the comments it feels like many people don’t seem to understand what the interviewers were looking for. To be clear upfront, it wasn’t simply getting the right answer spat out by the candidate’s solution. At one level they were trying to asses that you did in fact know how to write code, but since they’re assuming most of their candidates can write code, they were also checking to see what you would do…

I found the solution quite impressive, but I think it is the typical junior developer mistake of getting too smart with their code.

As an interviewer who is going to have to work with the candidate in case they get hired, I would worry that this kind of code would be what I'd need to review on a daily basis.

The requirements were weird, but when are they ever not? and read-ability and maintain-ability were clearly stated as priorities at the start..

Still, props for the cleverness.

Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#186
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This rule alone would make me walk out: "New rules will be revealed one by one. The candidate should note them as there won’t be shown again" This feels more like a Squid Game parody than an interview. I interview people from all walks of life. I would definitely not have hired some of the best engineers I worked with if I was trying to be too clever and quirky when giving out requirements.

> if I was trying to be too clever and quirky... You buried your lede IMO. The interviewers had this cute game and when the developer didn't play by the planned rules (build up a monsterous collections of branching on top of a for loop) they were screwed. Issues: * rules revealed one by one. Spec changes and is always incomplete, but you never even hear about changing spec that your existing solution already handles.…

It's meant to be a test of creativity. You will while programming encounter limitations, so the interview tests your ability to handle that. Any limitation in the interview will be artificial because it's a test rather than an actual job.

Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#187

[flagged]

I will never understand how can someone say so confidently such a broad statement believing it truly applies indiscriminately to every person of a country with 18 million people. Even if you had some bad experience with dutch people how can you really believe this automatically applies to all of them? Geez

Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#188

What a genuinely terrible interview. Seems like a great way to learn absolutely nothing about the candidate. I would have walked out half way through. These types of questions are very telling of an organization which is extremely insecure in its own abilities. For anyone who is a somewhat experienced programmer it is not hard to tell if someone else knows what he is talking about. You do not need to waste 45 minutes…

Designed to weed out anyone who might not follow orders. Was this a cult?

Close, it's what you might call a "job" where someone pays you to do what they say.

Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#189
post #182

What a genuinely terrible interview. Seems like a great way to learn absolutely nothing about the candidate. I would have walked out half way through. These types of questions are very telling of an organization which is extremely insecure in its own abilities. For anyone who is a somewhat experienced programmer it is not hard to tell if someone else knows what he is talking about. You do not need to waste 45 minutes…

In general, any made up problem (i.e., with no real utility) is just a puzzle and I would prefer to walk out unless I do need the/a job. What a pity when interviewers can't even think of a real world problem for an interview. Most interviewers are like that. No wonder, the industry has the candidates solve various coding problems, and once hired, all the candidates end up dealing with is company politics or other slo…

The point of fizzbuzz is to prove you can program. There are a few ways to solve the problem but like real world all are not elegant and so you have to show how you handle such problems. Yet you can do the whole thing in less than an hour while real worle problems are expected to take a week or more.

there is no point in all the additions the article had the first example is enough to show you are not lieing about your ability and that is what matters.

Re: The FizzBuzz that did not get me the job

#190
The interviewing company does seem like a dodged bullet at first glance, but:

- the requirements being weird might very well be modeling how weird things often get in reality. Rules are often not recorded and not repeated, and very often they seem arbitrary from the POV of the developers.

- the interviewers hinted that the direction was not what they were looking for

- a senior dev needs to apply his own common sense to understand what the truly appropriate solution is given the stated priorities (readability and maintainability were stated)

- not to mention the fact that if the interviewers don't understand your code, things won't go smoothly for you either way

The fact that they said, paraphrasing "..pick any esoteric language.." might investigate whether, given technical freedom (EG: to pick your own stack) you will build an incomprehensible codebase that will be hard for the company to deal with in the future

I think the author is indeed very clever and I learned a few things from reading this write up (thanks for sharing!) but I think the interviewers were right not be impressed.

If I were you, I'd try to dumb it down for your colleagues.

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