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Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

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Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#181

Post by throwawayffffas »

potato3732842 wrote: post #25

As a pedestrian I will take a busy light controlled intersection with a pedestrian scramble type walk signal over a busy 4-way stop where every single time. With the 4-way stop there is never a time in the cycle when all traffic is stopped. The drivers who are present are continuously paying attention to what other drivers are doing which robs them of situational awareness to note pedestrians. You can try and time it…

It's not even a textbook correct take. Its less risky to run a stop sign in a clear intersection than to run a red light. There are more people likely to run a stop sign on an empty intersection than a red light.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#182

Post by mitthrowaway2 »

afhsrtjwrtj wrote: post #139
throwway120385 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

Why is right-on-red always cited as the biggest problem with turns? My anecdotal experience is that drivers turning on green are way more likely to hit me when I have a walk signal on the cross-street than drivers who turn right on red.

It's usually because a driver turning (right) on green doesn't have to worry about merging into traffic, so they only need to focus on pedestrians. Hopefully they will. A driver turning right on red has traffic coming from their left and pedestrians walking in front, and they're usually more concerned about the cars, so they tend to look left while turning right. Ouch. It's a growing issue as well because of the growing size of cars. Littler people can be completely concealed behind a front grille.

A car turning left on green is also an issue because while they should be able to see and wait for pedestrians, they're often occluded by other cars and trucks, and those left turners can be in a hurry to proceed through a gap in traffic.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#183

Post by mook »

DHPersonal wrote: post #65
avgDev wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are stuck in the middle when turning crossing traffic needs to wait until you clear the intersection.

I find it's better for me to just miss the turn while I wait behind the line. I've seen too many instances where that doesn't work out the way it's intended to want to make it a habit for me anymore.

Wouldn't you have the same issue at the next light, and still be stuck waiting to turn, making no forward progress at all?

Note that I'm assuming an unprotected left turn (with right hand traffic as in the US) at a busy intersection with incoming cars running yellow lights; please let me know if any part of my assumption mismatches yours.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#184

Post by Symbiote »

I'm not a traffic engineer, but I think making this junction more 'European' would mean one or more of:

- Forbidding on-street parking close to the junction, improving pedestrian visibility.

- Removing the sweeping curves and replacing them with sharp curves, which reduces the speed drivers can turn, and reduces the distance (thus time) pedestrians are in the road.

- Adjusting road priorities

But maybe it's a lost cause. What's described as a "walkable center" in the article seems to be a multi-lane traffic circle with some landscaping surrounded by excessively wide roads and lots of parked cars. I don't see a single pedestrian-only street.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#186

Post by NegativeLatency »

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #126

I see decisions of the same type being made in the suburbs around here all the time, and the prioritization is identical. I think the issue is suburbanites and small-town folks generally have not experienced a walkable environment and don't understand how pleasant it can be. They are usually ensconced in cars and go isolated from one destination to another without actually touching the community at all. I was trying…

I think you’re actually describing a pretty normal experience of who goes to those sorts of meetings (people with lots of time on their hands)

It sounds like you’ve possibly already headed down a similar line of reasoning (or possibly read it already) but I’d recommend you check out the book “Strong Towns”. It’s got a ton of overlap with the ideas you’ve brought up.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#187

Post by mindslight »

throwawayffffas wrote: post #161
throwway120385 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

> Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even look for you. Right on red should not really be allowed. It's a real hazard.

IMO the problem isn't right on red itself, but rather that vehicles have to be in (and often completely over) the pedestrian crossing area to see oncoming vehicle traffic they have to yield to (at the distance required due to higher oncoming vehicle speeds). This encourages the behavior where drivers plan to have a single stop in that area, where they wait for an opening in vehicles to go - completely failing to take into account the possibility of having to stop before that area due to pedestrians actually using it. The situation is more like two separate stop and yields, and when drivers don't expect pedestrians they skip the first one.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#188

Post by kspacewalk2 »

SoftTalker wrote: post #166
throwway120385 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

Here's how I handle right on red: When I have the walk signal, I look to my left for cars that might be turning right. If there are any, I look at whether the driver sees me. Try to make eye contact. If they are moving and apparently don't see me or are going to turn anyway, I wait. I may have the right of way, but I'm not going to win that battle.

I make it clear with body language and eye contact that yes I see them and no I'm not meekly yielding my right of way. However, I leave just enough space to avoid being hit, for those situations when the True Assholes knowingly cut me off anyway. Or maybe they're not assholes by intent, but instead in the 90th percentile for inattentiveness and bad driving habits, which may even be the same thing. I don't know, I'm not a driver psychologist.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#189

Post by HnUser12 »

SoftTalker wrote: post #166
throwway120385 wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> With the walk signal there is a brief moment in time when the drivers are doing nothing but waiting for you and are all stopped so you as a pedestrian can account for them in preparation just before you get your signal and make your move. Having almost been hit a few times by drivers making a right turn on red, I can tell you the drivers never wait even if you have the right of way. You'll be lucky if they even loo…

Here's how I handle right on red: When I have the walk signal, I look to my left for cars that might be turning right. If there are any, I look at whether the driver sees me. Try to make eye contact. If they are moving and apparently don't see me or are going to turn anyway, I wait. I may have the right of way, but I'm not going to win that battle.

This is what was taught to me in drivers ed as a driver. Make eye contact with the pedestrian. So I do the same as a pedestrian as well.

Re: Making an intersection unsafe for pedestrians to save seconds for drivers

#190

Post by nirvdrum »

addicted wrote: post #113
munchler wrote: post #11

> I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span Video actually shows two cars entering the intersection on yellow lights, which is legal. The rest of the article seems similarly exaggerated. ---- Edit: For those who disagree, please be aware that the stop lines are out of frame, so both cars are already in the intersection before they're visible on the video. You can get a better picture of wha…

Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal. The article says that the street design causes drivers to speed up and makes the intersections unsafe. Instead of drivers always stopping, or at the very least slowing down, when approaching the intersection, the new street design leads to drivers speeding up when approaching the intersection. This is bad design for pedestrians irrespective of wh…

> Except the article doesn’t claim what the drivers are doing is illegal.

The article states “… and I captured two drivers ripping through red lights in that short span.” I suppose “ripping through” can be left up to interpretation.

However, in the video the author says “that person just ran a stop… a red light right in the middle of me filming.” Then the other he says: “I bet this guy runs the light. Yup, see, this person ran the light, too.”

“Running” a red light is an illegal act.

I think in both cases the cars should have slowed down and had plenty of time to stop before entering the intersection. But, evidently that’s legal in California, while the author indicates otherwise.

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