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The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

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Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#181

It seems very odd that the article seems to be measuring the information content of specific tasks that the brain is doing or specific objects that it is perceiving. But the brain is a general-purpose computer, not a speed-card computer, or English text computer, or binary digit computer, or Rubik's cube computer. When you look at a Rubik's cube, you don't just pick out specific positions of colored squares relative…

Such reductionist analyses are reliably blind to the complexity of being embodied in physical reality.

Reductionism is the only way humanity ever progressed on anything.

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it's a classic example of the power and skill of your "unconscious" mind - your consciousness is freed up to do novel work because the drive home is so routine that your unconscious mind can do almost all of the work. Should something change - a traffic jam, a detour, a pedestrian crossing the road - your conscious attention will be called back to the more urgent task which is making a decision about how to hand…

It seams interesting to me that what we refer to as the conscious mind is unconscious a third of each day and the part we call unconscious is active 24 by 7.

[deleted]

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seams interesting to me that what we refer to as the conscious mind is unconscious a third of each day and the part we call unconscious is active 24 by 7.

I'm out of my depth here, but a high-level response: First, I don't think the "unconscious" part is a single process, but myriad processes, and I'd bet they wax and wane. Second, the "conscious" part is the part that can reason about itself and think abstractly. I think it would be correct to say it's doing higher level computations. The important part is that this is more costly - it's not optimized because it has t…

So, one high-performance, high-power, general-purpose processor to handle the foreground task, and a bunch of low-power processors for background tasks.

Looks like ARM got it right with its big.LITTLE architecture. :)

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#184
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has anyone here even read more than the title? The article literally explains that you perceive at a rate of 10^9 bits per second. But after filtering and preprocessing in the outer brain you are only left with about 10 bits per second for conscious processing for things like motor functions. Yes, you can see a Rubic's cube and perceive all sorts of facts about it and the environment at the same time. But try solving…

Listen to a podcast at double speed. Assuming a normal talking speed of 150 words per minute, 300 words per minute of written word is not 10 bits per second.

(Shannon estimates 11.82 bits per word, so 300 WPM is 59.1 bits per second)

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My thoughts exactly. It makes no sense to me that what I'm thinking and perceiving in real-time is the equivalent of 10 bit/s of data.

Has anyone here even read more than the title? The article literally explains that you perceive at a rate of 10^9 bits per second. But after filtering and preprocessing in the outer brain you are only left with about 10 bits per second for conscious processing for things like motor functions. Yes, you can see a Rubic's cube and perceive all sorts of facts about it and the environment at the same time. But try solving…

I did read the summary and see what you saw, but that still leads me to believe the headline of the article is clickbait and that the authors don't understand that action signalling doesn't require the same bandwidth as information processing, but even then it's way more than 10b/s.

Look at a backhoe. It has a few levers and a couple pedals. EXTREMELY simple interface. Each lever and pedal is basically 1 bit for engage/disengage, but the operator has to process orders of magnitude more sensory info to operate it properly. You could use an arduino to control a backhoe, but you'd need quite a powerful computer to know what to tell the arduino to do. This shouldn't surprise anyone. Knowing how to use the tool well is always far more complicated than simply knowing how the tool operates.

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#186
I think the discussion on serial vs parallel processing is incomplete in the linked paper, and is one reason I think the 10 bits/s bottleneck is an incomplete or misinterpreted result. Here’s a review with sources on serial processing, https://journalofcognition.org/articles/10.5334/joc.185

> Cognitive psychology has mainly focused on structural and functional limitations of cognitive processes when facing multitasking requirements. Structural limitations assume strict serial processing for at least one processing stage, while functional limitations assume flexible, parallel processing only limited by the number of available resources. Human movement science, on the other hand, emphasizes the plasticity of cognition and training possibilities. As both approaches have provided ample empirical evidence for their views but have predominantly worked in isolation, this example clearly illustrates the need for a more integrative approach to multitasking. A challenge for the contemporary research on multitasking is to bring together the issues of structure, flexibility, and plasticity in human multitasking, offering a new integrative theoretical framework that accounts for this fundamental aspect of human behaviour.

From one of the papers cited by the above reference (Hommel 2020),

> A closer look reveals that the questions being asked in dual-task research are not particularly interesting or realistic, and the answers being given lack mechanistic detail. In fact, present theorizing can be considered mere empirical generalization, which has led to merely labeling processing bottlenecks rather than describing how they operate and how they actually produce the bottleneck.

So, while I applaud the authors on generating buzz and discussion, I think their promising work will benefit from more serious consideration of the underlying neurophysiology.

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#187
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Listen to a podcast at double speed. Assuming a normal talking speed of 150 words per minute, 300 words per minute of written word is not 10 bits per second.

Consider normal text compression and you're left with a few bits at best for most of those "fast talkers/listeners." And the human brain is very good at compression.

I feel like this is splitting hairs and moving goalposts. The pro side will always have some sort of explanation why it’s 10 bps or less without a way of actually proving it.

This is a frustrating article.

Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#189

It seems very odd that the article seems to be measuring the information content of specific tasks that the brain is doing or specific objects that it is perceiving. But the brain is a general-purpose computer, not a speed-card computer, or English text computer, or binary digit computer, or Rubik's cube computer. When you look at a Rubik's cube, you don't just pick out specific positions of colored squares relative…

The PhD student writing this could be excused for being young an inexperienced but their advisor, tagged second on the paper, should have cut this off at the pass.

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Re: The unbearable slowness of being: Why do we live at 10 bits/s?

#190

It seems very odd that the article seems to be measuring the information content of specific tasks that the brain is doing or specific objects that it is perceiving. But the brain is a general-purpose computer, not a speed-card computer, or English text computer, or binary digit computer, or Rubik's cube computer. When you look at a Rubik's cube, you don't just pick out specific positions of colored squares relative…

On the other hand, the amount of actual entropic "information" that is processed when you identify a Rubik's cube as such may be nowhere near as much as you think it is, and most importantly, 10 bits may be nowhere near as little as you think it is.

If we use your example, which is that of identifying an object, we may simply ask the entropy of what the distribution of possible objects-to-be-identified is at t=0, prior to any analysis. Saying we can resolve 10 bits of this entropy per second is equivalent to saying that we can identify one object from a uniform distribution of 1024 per second. Let's suppose this is a low estimate by several orders of magnitude, and that it's really one from a billion objects instead that you can identify per second. Then this would still only be about 30 bits/sec.

None of this changes the main thesis of the paper, which is that this is much lower than the 10⁹ bits/sec our sensory systems transmit.

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