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Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

the-scientist.com

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Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#181
post #169
post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> that sort of thing must happen frequently in nature Individual chiral molecules can happen naturally, sure, but not entire organisms. From the report: In a mirror bacterium, all of the chiral molecules of existing bacteria—proteins, nucleic acids, and metabolites—are replaced by their mirror images. In the fitness landscape there is an absolutely enormous gulf between standard and mirror bacteria, large enough that…

Nature has built a lot of bacteria over the millennia. It probably has experimented with just building the whole thing backwards. That sounds simpler to do than, say, evolving a cogwheel (which does happen occasionally) or actually developing some of these molecules in the first place. It'd be weird for evolution to struggle so much on trying such a simple concept somewhere. This is a process that naturally figured o…

> It'd be weird for evolution to struggle so much on trying such a simple concept somewhere.

While "building it backwards" sounds simple to us, it's not simple at all in evolutionary space. Evolution operates over a fitness landscape, where every configuration of an organism has some fitness (essentially, probability of reproducing). It can make good progress as long as there are paths that don't require traversing areas of impractically low fitness. The problem in this case is that between "normal" and "mirror" is an area of absurdly low fitness, which evolution shouldn't be expected to be able to cross.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#182
post #181
post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nature has built a lot of bacteria over the millennia. It probably has experimented with just building the whole thing backwards. That sounds simpler to do than, say, evolving a cogwheel (which does happen occasionally) or actually developing some of these molecules in the first place. It'd be weird for evolution to struggle so much on trying such a simple concept somewhere. This is a process that naturally figured o…

> It'd be weird for evolution to struggle so much on trying such a simple concept somewhere. While "building it backwards" sounds simple to us, it's not simple at all in evolutionary space. Evolution operates over a fitness landscape, where every configuration of an organism has some fitness (essentially, probability of reproducing). It can make good progress as long as there are paths that don't require traversing a…

We can't really say what is hard, because evolution tends to be more creative than anyone expects. But we can say it sounds easy - evolution would only need to come up with a "build this with reverse the chirality" mechanism and run everything through it. That'd even be what humans are doing in this research, I suspect. If there are advantages to reversing chirality then there'd be lots of paths where partially reversing chirality of parts of an organism would be interesting or creating clouds of reverse-chirality molecules would be evolutionary powerful.

It wouldn't be likely, but we're talking millions of years and a process that has overcome some remarkable engineering challenges. Finding one place where building backwards then extending that just wouldn't be such a big deal.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately, seems the only way to figure this out is by testing. But on the flip, nobody can really trust that it won't accidentally or purposefully escape from labs.

They can create a few mirrored proteins and sugars and test them. Without RNA (and a lot of additional machinery) the proteins and sugars will not start to spontaneusly reproduce to conquer the word.

A prion don't have RNA, and yet they can reproduce

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#185

The full report is here: "Technical Report on Mirror Bacteria: Feasibility and Risks" https://purl.stanford.edu/cv716pj4036 The premise reminds me of the "Rifters" trilogy by biologist and science fiction author Peter Watts. In it, an archaic deep sea microorganism "ßehemoth" that outcompetes all other kingdoms of life is brought to the surface and wreaks global havoc as it spreads. https://www.rifters.com/maelstrom/…

Peter Watts’ work is indeed bleak, harsh, but brilliant. I thought Blindsight was a hard read but the Rifters trilogy is another level

If it makes you feel better, while someone with blindsight is able to interact with the objects in front of them through a subliminal awareness of them they can't form memories of those objects. Memory is actually very useful and consciousness[1] is necessary for its formation so you don't have to worry about non-conscious lifeforms out-competing conscious ones.

[1] In the sense that is related to blindsight. Maybe someone with blindsight still has philosophical qualia of the objects they say they can't see, I don't know

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#187
post #131

Maybe we should manufacture and stockpile mirror antibiotics, in case of accidental or intentional release of such organisms. This appeals to me both as a defensive/protective measure and as a deterrent to others who might look to weaponize such organisms.

Reading through the report, the trouble turns out to be that "devastating disease for humans" is possibly the least of our problems. Even if we had a perfect stockpile of antibiotics that would protect humans against any possible mirror organism (we'd need a wide variety, right?), all of our crops and livestock would be wiped out. All the forests. All the plankton. It would be really bad.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#188
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Several other countries also gave them up with better results. Including South Africa, Sweden, Belarus, and Kazakhstan.

Argentina, Brazil. although they say brazil is just a few days away of developing a nuclear bomb if it decides to. It would not be able to throw it anywhere useful tho at maximum south american neighbors

Neither Argentina nor Brazil has ever had nuclear weapons, although both countries did historically produce low-grade enriched reactor fuel. Argentina resumed its enrichment activity in 02015. Brazil resumed its enrichment activity in 02006 but still does not have enough production capacity to supply even its minuscule fleet of nuclear power stations.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#189

That's sensationalism. Mirror bacteria would be at a severe disadvantage as there are no natural mirror aminoacids. Normal bacteria will quickly evolve to consume mirror aminoacids. And there are much much more normal bacteria than any possible mirror bacteria. They would be wiped out pretty quickly.

Bacteria can often synthesize all 20 amino acids themselves if they have enough carbon and nitrogen. They don't need to ingest existing amino acids from the environment.

Re: Mirror bacteria research poses significant risks, scientists warn

#190

The claim that mirror molecules would not be subject to immune surveillance makes no sense to me. The immune system is happy to react to non-biological molecules. It reacts to shapes, not chirality. It is a separate question whether the immune response could break into mirror membranes and break down mirror molecules.

Most parts of the innate immune system recognize specific shapes like nucleic acids, while the adaptive immune system is more flexible in what it can recognize.
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