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Engineering Sleep

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Re: Engineering Sleep

#181

Post by lukas099 »

shepherdjerred wrote: post #122
londons_explore wrote: post #73

It's notable that almost every animal sleeps in some way, even organisms that are away from sunlight (ie. creatures that live underground). If you sleep 30% of the time, that's 30% of the time you aren't eating, mating, etc. Also, during sleep you are more vulnerable to predators. One would expect evolution to get rid of sleep in creatures who don't rely on sunlight cycles. So, there must be some really good evolutio…

I don't think this is necessarily true. Is there some really important reason many animals have brains in their head (versus elsewhere in their body), or is it that many species happen to be derived from some ancestor who had that trait. Another way to ask this would be how much of a benefit would be not sleeping? It's difficult to preserve food, but I guess there is no limit on how much energy you can expend pursuin…

> Is there some really important reason many animals have brains in their head

I'm guessing proximity to sensory organs.

Re: Engineering Sleep

#182

Post by lukas099 »

londons_explore wrote: post #73

It's notable that almost every animal sleeps in some way, even organisms that are away from sunlight (ie. creatures that live underground). If you sleep 30% of the time, that's 30% of the time you aren't eating, mating, etc. Also, during sleep you are more vulnerable to predators. One would expect evolution to get rid of sleep in creatures who don't rely on sunlight cycles. So, there must be some really good evolutio…

> So, there must be some really good evolutionary reason for sleep.

Just one, but partitioning activities in time allows for further specialization. For example, instead of having generalist eyeballs that are okay at seeing in light and dark, you can have specialist ones that are really good at one or the other. Then another species in the same area that utilizes similar resources can specialize in the opposite, reducing competition between the two species (this is called resource partitioning).

Then, once there's a chunk of the day that is less productive than the other, it makes more sense for the body to devote that time to various recovery mechanisms. Then that chunk of time is even less productive, making using that time for recovery even more attractive.

Re: Engineering Sleep

#183

Post by lukas099 »

ajsisbckjx wrote: post #79
londons_explore wrote: post #73

It's notable that almost every animal sleeps in some way, even organisms that are away from sunlight (ie. creatures that live underground). If you sleep 30% of the time, that's 30% of the time you aren't eating, mating, etc. Also, during sleep you are more vulnerable to predators. One would expect evolution to get rid of sleep in creatures who don't rely on sunlight cycles. So, there must be some really good evolutio…

> So, there must be some really good evolutionary reason for sleep. Is this how evolution works? Might it be that animals sleeping is good on the macro level but bad for the animal?

Not only that, there are 'parasitic genes' that are wholly bad for the animal and the species.

Re: Engineering Sleep

#184

Post by shepherdjerred »

lukas099 wrote: post #181
shepherdjerred wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Is there some really important reason many animals have brains in their head (versus elsewhere in their body), or is it that many species happen to be derived from some ancestor who had that trait. Another way to ask this would be how much of a benefit would be not sleeping? It's difficult to preserve food, but I guess there is no limit on how much energy you can expend pursuin…

> Is there some really important reason many animals have brains in their head I'm guessing proximity to sensory organs.

Maybe; my point though is that there are a lot of these common traits. I don't think these traits (e.g. need for sleep) being shared is necessarily because it's globally optimal.

Re: Engineering Sleep

#185

Post by setsewerd »

warrentr wrote: post #145
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I remember reading that Thatcher used to nap regularly throughout the day. She probably got more sleep than was stated at the time.

Same with Churchill. He would arrange for his afternoon nap and bath even when visiting other countries

Napping is also associated with dementia, I wonder if that's explained by sleep deprivation? Could be that you don't get as much (if any) deep sleep during shorter naps, compared to a full night's sleep.

Re: Engineering Sleep

#186

Post by klysm »

iancmceachern wrote: post #180
ianburrell wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You said “sleep when you are tired”. Lots of people can’t do that, we need to manage our sleep. The thing that helped me not worry about sleep was the routine. But that needs to be maintained and tweaked. I don’t worry about it, but have to think about it.

Can you please elaborate as to why? Do you have a health condition that requires you to manage your sleep? Pragmatically how does that shake out? I was not speaking to those with medical conditions or similar. It was more general advice that helped me in the past for those who don't have sleep conditions, but are giving themselves one because they're needlessly worrying about or optimizing it.

I can easily stay awake and alert for 20 hours at a time. That is not conducive to staying on a good schedule

Re: Engineering Sleep

#187

Post by moneywoes »

pedalpete wrote: post #114

I work in the sleep space, particularly enhancing slow-wave sleep - the synchronous firing of neurons which define deep sleep, the most restorative and vital component of sleep. Only focusing on the amount of time asleep is a significantly limited viewpoint, but I believe this will change in the coming years as we gather more knowledge of sleep and access to EEG data about our brain activity during sleep increases. O…

what do you do better than Whoop

Re: Engineering Sleep

#188

Post by moneywoes »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #31
almostlit wrote: post #7

If there was in fact a safe pathway to only needing 2 hours of sleep I would 100% use it and consider it a zero to one innovation. Although I think it would also come with a lot of pushback. One of my favourite questions to ask people is "if there was a way that allowed you to not sleep and be completely fine, would you take it?". Surprisingly (or maybe not) most people will answer no and say they like sleep to much.…

Count me in with you - I'd definitely say "yes" to less sleep. But, if it were a general invention, I don't think it would work as well as you say. Beyond the usual economics issue[0], for me the value of not sleeping is entirely conditioned on everyone else sleeping . It's not that I don't like to sleep. It's that I also like me-time, autonomy, lack of other people's demands or expectations, and the only time to get…

very good point - if everyone could sleep 2 hours we’d be working 999 hours

Re: Engineering Sleep

#189

Post by klysm »

iancmceachern wrote: post #149
hackable_sand wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get what you are saying too, but it is privileged to assume people can "just" unbind their natural cycle. It's like telling someone who is lactose intolerant to "just" eat their cereal with milk.

I'm not saying anything about your schedule. You do you. What I am saying is adding another layer of stress and yet another thing to optimize on top of all that does nothing but make it worse. In terms of the analogy you gave: I'm not saying drink milk, I'm saying stop worrying about it and drink oat milk. Spend that energy elsewhere in your life in things that are more easily effected by your efforts.

I think I agree with what you’re saying - adding systems on top of something that doesn’t need it isn’t worth it. I agree; however, some folks can’t “just” follow their natural tiredness to manage their sleep.

Re: Engineering Sleep

#190

Post by alfiedotwtf »

joveian wrote: post #167
alfiedotwtf wrote: post #12

I wonder it I have this… Both my parents go to bed around 1am and wake up at 7am, and so did all of my grandparents. My kids on weekends go to bed around 1-2am as well but do sleep in, and my average is about 4-5 hours a night… As for me, I’ve had sleep issues all my life and found the only way to fall asleep within 20 minutes is to stay up until exhaustion. But lately I’ve been gaining back my time and pushing even…

I've read that in cave studies when isolated from any direct indication of time people will naturally sleep longer every other day like this. However, I have severe sleep issues that leave me disabled and the main issue seems to be that I have a non-24 hour circadian rhythm and can't sleep outside the rotating times but in some ways my body is still synchronized to the sun (I do much worse when awake at night). So I…

Reading one of William Dement's books on sleep, 20 minutes to fall asleep should be the amount of time to try (otherwise get up and do something else until you're actually tired, because there's no point in wasting 2 hours in bed awake).

Interesting on the dementia and sleep... though all my grandparents lived to old age, and my dad who I know hardly sleeps is in his 80s and doesn't really have memory issues. Hopefully that keeps up!

But thanks - I'll keep an eye on that one

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