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How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

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Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#181

Post by StefanBatory »

lazystar wrote: post #157
ilitirit wrote: post #156

This title of my article doesn't make much sense to me. Why would you get fired for giving feedback? Is this just a US thing? I give feedback to my superiors all the time, and expect my subordinates to do the same. In fact, as far as my team goes, you're more likely to get into trouble (not fired) if you rarely give feedback.

when your boss is a one-upper who doesnt understand your teams product, they will do everything possible to sabatoge your efforts and spin metrics to make you look bad. attempting to give feedback to such a person will get you this response: "you need to earn trust and learn to disagree and commit". idk if this is a US thing; its mainly a thing where a manager is tasked with supporting a product that they dont unders…

It's not only US thing, eastern european too. We're on average rather alright developers but culturally there's no skill of good management - we have been destroyed in this aspect by Soviet occupation and communism.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#182

Post by dataflow »

Lvl999Noob wrote: post #180
refulgentis wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Only in the same sense that bottom-level employees are the CEO's superior. Which is to say, they aren't. Fascinating: What companies do you know of that have democratic elections of CEOs?

Doesn't nearly every company have a democratic process for choosing CEOs? Just that the voters are only the board members.

Your "just" is the point.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#183

Post by Simon_ORourke »

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

> If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start polishing your resume.

Never a truer word said than this. It's incredibly naive to think that any unfiltered feedback upwards to senior management will be welcomed. In reality, no matter how accurate the feedback may be it will be regarded at best as useless, and at worst as a direct threat to leadership requiring a response. This response may come in the form of a re-org, team move or headcount reduction.

While totally disingenuous, your best strategy is to simply tow the corporate line while looking for a new job.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#184

Post by humanfromearth9 »

Actually you just don't give feedback to your superiors. But you really may/should plant the seeds of ideas in their brains. You discuss concepts, fundamental stuff that will grow into their brain and make them change. This takes time, patience and repetition, like educating a kid. It's actually the same, nothing has changed there.

And you remain modest and ready to learn and listen. Especially because your superiors always have information that you don't have and which might explain decisions which you don't understand, and won't without this information.

And you don't "tell", you ask about topics, and show interest.

Then you might be able to propose real help to your boss, and suggest him to delegate some responsibility to you. And that's where you have some agency to create meaningful change. Bingo.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#185

Post by The_Colonel »

lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

> If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start polishing your resume.

Yeah, I'm not going to change a job just because one of my superiors is insecure (and the other things are good). This all-or-nothing mentality is just thought-stopping.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#186

Post by enugu »

nvarsj wrote: post #118
bradlys wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just due to an employee being H1B. It's that 80% of your peers are Chinese and Indian H1Bs who bring that culture of deference to authority into the US. I don't even feel like I'm working in the US when I'm working for any tech company these days. If I'm at ads for FB, I may as well be in Beijing. Some others, I may as well be in Mumbai. It would be nice to work with Americans/westerners for once and actuall…

I've had a pretty similar experience in big tech. Some cultures do really seem to struggle with feedback (both giving and receiving). It can be a very painful work environment as a result - given I'm an incredibly direct person. The best work culture I had was in a dutch firm. People just straight up called bullshit out all the time, and it got fixed fast. So refreshing. I've never been able to find another workplace…

Reasonable observations on office behaviour are being processed into glib stereotypes on culture. Employees routinely show discontent in India, (just one instance https://www.reuters.com/world/india/workers-apple-supplier-f...). So much so, that labour disputes are considered a major obstacle to corporate investment. Like Europe, India has labour laws which make people hard to fire.

There are other factors involved - if a H1B employee, whose job security is tied to the employer risks taking a 10x salary cut or more by going back home, then a fear for job security leading to such behaviour is a given.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#187

Post by The_Colonel »

Kamq wrote: post #101
NAHWheatCracker wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that's how it should be, but experience tells me that everyone is insecure and it's hardly correlated with position and job security. People lower down the chain are insecure because they could legitimately be let go at any time for any reason. People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. Especially having failings pointed out by someone "below" them.

> People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. You don't do it in public. There's no face to lose in private (you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors). It is, however, not really a good idea to be 100% blunt out of the gate. There's a dance to it. But in public, I'm there to make my manager look good, and in private I'll tell them exactly what I think. On…

> you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors

I disagree. Losing the respect of your subordinates is IMHO worse than of your superior.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#188

Post by casenmgreen »

humanfromearth9 wrote: post #184

Actually you just don't give feedback to your superiors. But you really may/should plant the seeds of ideas in their brains. You discuss concepts, fundamental stuff that will grow into their brain and make them change. This takes time, patience and repetition, like educating a kid. It's actually the same, nothing has changed there. And you remain modest and ready to learn and listen. Especially because your superiors…

> Actually you just don't give feedback to your superiors.

Concur. In hierarchical organizations, with power over your job security and prospects held by the person above you, bad news does not travel upwards.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#189

Post by Simon_ORourke »

seanp2k2 wrote: post #64
lijok wrote: post #6

Astonishing. Completely backwards. This article describes how to give feedback to your subordinates, not to your superiors. If your superiors are unable to process no-fluff information, regardless of whether it's feedback or updates, they have no business lording over anyone and will sink whatever function they have oversight of. If you find yourself working under such people, don't bother giving feedback, start poli…

At [company that purportedly highly values candor], I’ve seen multiple people get canned by VPs or directors they’ve criticized internally. Granted, these situations were cases where this was communicated either in a larger feedback meeting that was supposed to be a “safe” space for such feedback, or via other communications that were visible to more than just the person being criticized. These criticisms were defini…

I've seen this a lot, especially with junior folks getting on their high horse publicly about some direction or decision. Whenever it happens I make a point of putting a reminder in my calendar to check their corp Slack handle after three weeks to see if they're still employed. 9 out of 10 are deactivated when I check back.

Hold your tongue, there's no such thing as a safe space in any all hands or group-level meeting.

Re: How to give a senior leader feedback without getting fired

#190

Post by jajko »

lazide wrote: post #159
Kamq wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People higher up the chain are insecure because any loss of face is debilitating. You don't do it in public. There's no face to lose in private (you're a subordinate, face is only lost among peers and superiors). It is, however, not really a good idea to be 100% blunt out of the gate. There's a dance to it. But in public, I'm there to make my manager look good, and in private I'll tell them exactly what I think. On…

Most people can, some people can’t - and the ones who can’t can be incredibly dangerous.

Yeah good luck with getting anything, ever, out of folks that feel butt-hurt due to their fragile emotions, in my experience women often go the extra mile to hold grudges, while sporting big smiles publicly.. That gate is closed for good, and you really have no idea what to expect - be it silent treatment or even subversion and backstabbing.

To summarize - each of us is pretty unique, and without going though it you can't know how words can affect other people, even those above you that should know better. But they didn't get to that elevated position via honed skill of listening calmly to their subordinates feedback, did they.

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