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Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

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Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#181

Post by tomhoward »

I'm not commenting specifically on the heart-muscle aspect of the study, but it shouldn't be a surprise that the weight loss from this drug is significantly attributable to muscle loss; it almost always is when dieting. It's the same with keto/low-carb or any other kind of caloric-restrictive dieting (which Ozempic facilitates).

The modern weight-loss programs I'm seeing now (at least those aimed mostly at middle-aged men) emphasize consuming significant amounts of protein (2g for every 1kg of body weight each day) and engaging in regular resistance training, in order to maintain muscle mass.

The article addresses this:

To keep muscle strong while losing weight, Prado says it is essential to focus on two main things: nutrition and exercise. Proper nutrition means getting enough high-quality protein, essential vitamins and minerals, and other “muscle-building” nutrients. Sometimes, this can include protein supplements to make sure the body has what it needs.

Perhaps there needs to be more formal research into this, and a strong recommendation made to everyone using these drugs that this kind of diet and exercise plan is vital.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#182

Post by com2kid »

throwup238 wrote: post #33
com2kid wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Outside of cardiac muscle, which is a bit worrisome, 40% of weight loss being from muscles is incredibly typical for any diet that sheds pounds. There are very complex dietary regimes that can be followed to minimize this, but most studies have shown that they don't save any time compared to losing weight and then working to get the muscle back afterwards. > Dyck’s study comes on the heels of a commentary published i…

Literally the next line after the 40% quote: > Carla Prado, a nutrition researcher in the Faculty of Agricultural, Life & Environmental Sciences and lead author on the commentary, explains this rate of muscle decline is significantly higher than what is typically observed with calorie-reduced diets or normal aging and could lead to a host of long-term health issues — including decreased immunity, increased risk of in…

> Do you have a source that 40% muscle loss is typical for a caloric restriction diet without GLP1 agonists?

OK I actually checked up on this, and it is more like 30%, but that number gets worse as you get older. For young healthy men it can be 20%, but as you get older that number gets worse and worse.

I'd want to see a comparison of a similar cohort of people going on a calorie restricted diet of the same magnitude, with a similar (lack of) activity levels.

The study at https://www.thelancet.com/journals/landia/article/PIIS2213-8... compares people who had less overall weight loss on a pure calorie restricting diet, which, well, by definition isn't the same thing.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#183

Post by xk_id »

cthalupa wrote: post #180
kbos87 wrote: post #137

There are a lot of people here citing loss of muscle mass as a side effect of GLP-1s, when the reality is that weight loss almost always comes with muscle loss. For me, that hasn't even been the case. I'm down 40lbs on a relatively low dose of Semaglutide and my muscle mass has moderately increased over the last 6 months. The hysteria over this is totally unfounded.

Yep. I started resistance training 5x a week about a month in on tirzepatide and even with a severely restricted caloric intake (I just can't eat enough), I've gained LBM.

How did you measure the increase in LBM? This requires very advanced technical equipment. My suspicion is that you have noticed an increase in muscle volume and assumed it to be an increase in muscle mass. Those are largely due to water retention and increased blood flow. They revert quite quickly after you stop exercising for about a week.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#184

Post by rootsudo »

LeoPanthera wrote: post #42

It's my understanding that if you have hypertension, your heart muscle grows thicker as a consequence of working harder against your blood pressure, which reduces the flow capacity of your heart. So if you have hypertension, this might actually be a "good" side-effect?

I was also thinking if in used with testestrone, which is dangerous because the heart is a muscle and unintended consequence of trt is heart muscle growth which decreases blood flow.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#185

Post by cthalupa »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #50
throwup238 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The next line of the article after that 40% quote: > Carla Prado, a nutrition researcher in the Faculty of Agricultural, Life & Environmental Sciences and lead author on the commentary, explains this rate of muscle decline is significantly higher than what is typically observed with calorie-reduced diets or normal aging and could lead to a host of long-term health issues — including decreased immunity, increased risk…

>Losing weight without losing muscle mass is very hard. I was with you up to here. In my experience it's easy to maintain a huge proportion of your lean tissue during a weight loss diet: Do some resistance training, get some protein, and don't lose weight too quickly. There's no need to go to the extreme of a PSMF - which will still have you lose a bunch of muscle on account of being too big a deficit. If you can kee…

So, yes and no.

If you're doing resistance training for the first time in your life or the first time in years, noob gains will outpace loss if you train hard and get adequate protein. This is the case for a lot of people on these GLP-1s, at least at the start.

But if you have a massive quantity to lose, as in a multi-year process, you won't be able to keep up the noob gains for the entirety, and then yeah, you're going to basically just be training hard and shoving protein down your face just to keep the muscle loss minimal.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#186

Post by BartjeD »

kbos87 wrote: post #137

There are a lot of people here citing loss of muscle mass as a side effect of GLP-1s, when the reality is that weight loss almost always comes with muscle loss. For me, that hasn't even been the case. I'm down 40lbs on a relatively low dose of Semaglutide and my muscle mass has moderately increased over the last 6 months. The hysteria over this is totally unfounded.

It predicts long term consequences on health. Not immediate ones. You wouldn't have noticed at all. Unless you measured your heart muscle weight.

It's good to work out. Perhaps it offsets any loss.

I get that it's upsetting and might contradict what you think.

At this stage we don't know for sure. It's something you might want to keep in mind. Especially if you take this drug without working out.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#187

Post by insane_dreamer »

robwwilliams wrote: post #179

Not a solid paper—-more like an abstract. I could not find any information on the strain or type of mice they studied. Data from one strain often fails to generalize to others. Trying to leap to human implications is beyond risky.

If you're trying to prove a positive benefit, then leaping from mice to humans is risky. If you're concerned about possible negative effects of something, then mice is a good place to start.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#188

Post by cthalupa »

ohyes wrote: post #84
phil21 wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bodybuilders I know seem to have a a very difficult time keeping their muscle gains while on a cut, I don’t know why someone who is not in a gym 5+ days a week and on an extremely optimized heavy protein diet measured down to the gram would expect otherwise. Is it possible to go very slow and keep most of your lean muscle mass? Sure. Is it practical? I have my doubts. Part of the effectiveness of these drugs - for me…

I feel like a cut is a very specific type of weight loss where the person gets down to an unusually low body fat %. It’s to the point where each bit of fat loss is a significant portion of your body’s fat reserves. It seems different from when there is an abundance of easily accessible fat to burn.

Well, bulking and cutting cycles are pretty common for anyone beyond the beginniner stage when wanting to add muscle mass, even if they're more recreational or a powerlifter or whatever. It's just way more efficient to be in a large enough surplus to make hitting your macros easier and then diet after than it is to try and be super careful about it. The powerlifters aren't worried about getting down to that show ready <10%, they're just trying to not be fat, and they still lose some muscle.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#189

Post by cthalupa »

hehehheh wrote: post #58
zemvpferreira wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Losing weight without losing muscle mass is very hard. I was with you up to here. In my experience it's easy to maintain a huge proportion of your lean tissue during a weight loss diet: Do some resistance training, get some protein, and don't lose weight too quickly. There's no need to go to the extreme of a PSMF - which will still have you lose a bunch of muscle on account of being too big a deficit. If you can kee…

Intuitively, if you can lift a modest bench press (not novice, maybe beginner-intermediate) and you keep training and you consume a few fewer calories (not starve) why would you lose your strength.

If you are outside of your noob gains period and keep up your protein intake and resistance training you will minimize your muscle loss, but you'll still see some.

Bodybuilders will even take AAS that explicitly reduce catabolism of muscle mass like Anavar and still lose some muscle on cuts.

Re: Weight-loss drug found to shrink muscle in mice, human cells

#190

Post by kridsdale1 »

xk_id wrote: post #183
cthalupa wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. I started resistance training 5x a week about a month in on tirzepatide and even with a severely restricted caloric intake (I just can't eat enough), I've gained LBM.

How did you measure the increase in LBM? This requires very advanced technical equipment. My suspicion is that you have noticed an increase in muscle volume and assumed it to be an increase in muscle mass. Those are largely due to water retention and increased blood flow. They revert quite quickly after you stop exercising for about a week.

DEXA scans are accurate and readily available in most cities for about $100. Just do it quarterly or whatever.
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