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Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

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Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually planes are turned around too fast to be waiting for them to fully reboot every time they fuel. Typically they would prefer to keep them running for weeks at a time to minimize any issues or delays with extra steps when the clock is ticking and customers are waiting to board and fly

But they don't reboot them every time they fuel. Commercial aircraft need continual software updates to operate. They are, in a sense, living, breathing machines. Things like navigation and terrain databases are updated inside of 30 days. Adding a scheduled reboot is one more item on a checklist that was already being run through. It's counterintuitive, but performing a reboot as a scheduled maintenance item is far m…

Yes.

Also in case of emergency, eg after a power loss or whatever, you might have to do a reboot anyway. So you might as well make sure that this code path is well exercised.

I'd rather deal with a ground hog day of the system being for the millionth time in its first day of operation, than dealing for the first time with the system being in its millionth day of operation.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#182
post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a hard time feeling complainy about stuff like this because if engineers are doing their jobs properly, they’re implementing the defined requirements. Requirements are guided by business decisions on what matters and what doesn’t matter for a project. So ultimately this means that if the argument is that the business is making the wrong decisions, then that means there’s an opportunity for someone to profit by…

The profit argument is not great for everything humans need, not everything can be driven by profit motives, look where that’s gotten us in medical care in America, social insurance, etc. Profit driven enterprise is efficient, but needs balance that doesn’t seem to be there today in order to limit the extremes.

I agree. Voyager happened because of what you say. But then we cannot compare apples to orangutans by pointing out how Voyager rocked but all these for-profit endeavours sucked.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#183

I think the Voyager probes teach us lots about what's wrong with corporate America. Imagine devices that don't have built-in obsolescence, or licensing that expires, or that isn't built by committee where they just keep shipping requirements around from one department to another. Imagine if it weren't all proprietary and if it didn't have no public or even complete documentation. Think of all the problems we have ins…

I have a hard time feeling complainy about stuff like this because if engineers are doing their jobs properly, they’re implementing the defined requirements. Requirements are guided by business decisions on what matters and what doesn’t matter for a project. So ultimately this means that if the argument is that the business is making the wrong decisions, then that means there’s an opportunity for someone to profit by…

> I have a hard time feeling complainy about stuff like this because if engineers are doing their jobs properly, they’re implementing the defined requirements. Requirements are guided by business decisions on what matters and what doesn’t matter for a project.

Well, it's a bit of back and forth between business and engineering.

> So ultimately this means that if the argument is that the business is making the wrong decisions, then that means there’s an opportunity for someone to profit by proving them wrong.

Generally yes, but sometimes it's hard because of double-sided network effects. The classic example being expensive but prestigious scientific journals:

All the scientists and funding agencies would benefit from moving to cheaper journals, but an individual scientist will try to publish their best work in the most prestigious journal they can get.

(And often the complainers mix in some good old paternalism, too: 'oh, those customers are ill-informed and the companies are exploiting them by tricking them into buying inferior products and getting trapped.' or some story like that.)

> I love Voyager but it also cost something like a billion dollars. So it’s a bit unsurprising that it is such a resilient system.

The money was necessary, but not sufficient. Compare the great performance of the Voyagers with the disaster that was the Space Shuttle program or the ongoing farce that is the International Space Station.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#184
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most of the probes would be identical. Is there some existing plan? A paper that supports this idea? It's not clear to me that the probe we send to one place for one purpose is the same we'd send to another. > Building two identical probes would cost only marginally more than 1, perhaps 10% more. I've read from experts - somewhere here on HN - that isn't how the costs work. > Plenty of funding would become availabl…

> It's not clear to me that the probe we send to one place for one purpose is the same we'd send to another. We've launched twins before. The two Voyagers, for example. Two Vikings, for another. When we build different airplane models, quite a bit comes from other airplanes. Even if the parts aren't identical, they are usually just resized or tweaked or modernized. Look at all the 737 variants, and the 747 variants,…

> We've launched twins before. The two Voyagers, for example. Two Vikings, for another.

Good point. Do we know the marginal cost of the second one? Why don't we send twins now?

> When we build different airplane models, quite a bit comes from other airplanes.

I expect we're already doing that with space probes, to the degree it's possible. I feel like some of your argument is the old 'these people are idiots and I know obvious ways to do it better'.

A good question is, why doesn't NASA do it that way? It would be interesting to hear the response of someone there.

I can think of reasons it might not be effective - e.g., the probe for a few months of Europa terrain observation might be very different than the 10-year solar radiation observer, which might be much different than the Mars whatever, etc.

> I debated those experts here, and a lot of their arguments didn't hold up. For example: / 1. only need to [____] once

Those are the benefits of standardization and mass production and can be quite valuable, but not everything can be done that way. That's why we have different planes, cars, etc. I might want everyone in our company to use the same laptop, but different people have different needs.

I can come up with other possible issues, but I have no idea without someone with actual experience:

There can be a significant cost to engineering for standardization. Parts, assembly, a supply chain, a production line - maybe not worth the cost at the quantities needed. And there are things like the F-35, intended to save money by meeting the mission requirements of militaries in a ~dozen countries and services, including all of the US Air Force, Navy, and Marines - all simultaneously! Anyone who has designed even small systems would, I think, feel alarm at reading that. It took a little time and money to find a way to do all that effectively, please all those bosses, with an all-in-one tool. (Off the top of my head, just think of power supplies that can suit every possible demand on space probes!)

Weight and size are especially an issue for space probes, which would seem to make an all-in-one tool more challenging. The proposed solution often is modularization - a standard framework with interchangeable mission modules. In my limited experience trying it, it's a mess: when things break or need lots of extra attention, IME as a general rule it's most often at the interfaces between systems and between subsytems; the interchangeable module approach is asking for trouble. I know the US Navy tried that with littoral combat ships, and it failed. (Which doesn't mean it never succeeds.)

> What's more important? Solar system exploration or half-brain cats?

You really set yourself up ...

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#185

I think the Voyager probes teach us lots about what's wrong with corporate America. Imagine devices that don't have built-in obsolescence, or licensing that expires, or that isn't built by committee where they just keep shipping requirements around from one department to another. Imagine if it weren't all proprietary and if it didn't have no public or even complete documentation. Think of all the problems we have ins…

What's wrong with the Boeing case on needing to be rebooted. It doesn't seem much worse then memory leaks in missle guidance tracking systems that exceed flight time. We have finite resources, if the effort to correct is minimal what's the harm?

> We have finite resources, if the effort to correct is minimal what's the harm?

That mentality at Boeing as, literally, costed many lives.

The harm is that nobody knows why there's a memory leak requiring a reboot (or if it's even a memory leak). What happens when that very same issue is combined with a rare case and causes the death of hundreds of people?

"Have you tried to turn it off and on again" may be fine for a $20 Internet-of-insecure-and-shitty-Thing bought on alibaba. Not so much when lives are at play.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#186
post #180

I think the Voyager probes teach us lots about what's wrong with corporate America. Imagine devices that don't have built-in obsolescence, or licensing that expires, or that isn't built by committee where they just keep shipping requirements around from one department to another. Imagine if it weren't all proprietary and if it didn't have no public or even complete documentation. Think of all the problems we have ins…

> Imagine devices that don't have built-in obsolescence, or licensing that expires, [...] You can buy long lasting stuff just fine, if you are willing to pay. You can get eternal licenses (or an outright sale of rights), if you are willing to pay. It's all about trade-offs, and many people have priorities that are different from 'last as long as possible'. Eg many computers from the 1980s are still perfectly usable t…

You can't use your 25 year old phone for more than a snake game. most 2g towers have been turned off to make room for 4g and 5g.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#187

I think the Voyager probes teach us lots about what's wrong with corporate America. Imagine devices that don't have built-in obsolescence, or licensing that expires, or that isn't built by committee where they just keep shipping requirements around from one department to another. Imagine if it weren't all proprietary and if it didn't have no public or even complete documentation. Think of all the problems we have ins…

Principal agent problem. Look at the final outcomes. Business exists to make money even if it means the most malicious ways (ex planned obsolescence), science project are not there to make money.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Usually planes are turned around too fast to be waiting for them to fully reboot every time they fuel. Typically they would prefer to keep them running for weeks at a time to minimize any issues or delays with extra steps when the clock is ticking and customers are waiting to board and fly

But they don't reboot them every time they fuel. Commercial aircraft need continual software updates to operate. They are, in a sense, living, breathing machines. Things like navigation and terrain databases are updated inside of 30 days. Adding a scheduled reboot is one more item on a checklist that was already being run through. It's counterintuitive, but performing a reboot as a scheduled maintenance item is far m…

Mainframes in the late 80s got so good nobody was rebooting them. Then in the 90s someone's mainframe had the powerbackup generators fail in a power outage and the system went down (a once in 500 year event, but with more than 500 mainframes around the world it was statistacally bound to happen). the system didn't boot correctly and it took months to figure out all how to start all the services it was running that the person who started them left without add them to the startup configs. Now everyone reboots a couple times a year so that when things don't restart correctly the person who knows about them still remembers something about it.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#189

I think the Voyager probes teach us lots about what's wrong with corporate America. Imagine devices that don't have built-in obsolescence, or licensing that expires, or that isn't built by committee where they just keep shipping requirements around from one department to another. Imagine if it weren't all proprietary and if it didn't have no public or even complete documentation. Think of all the problems we have ins…

I mean, the Voyager probes are completely proprietary. They’re completely custom, built for a unary purpose.

Building long lasting hardware makes a lot of sense when you expect to use that technology for a long time. I’m sure there was a time when people thought we’d be using steam power forever.

It makes less sense if the rate of technological innovations makes hardware or software obsolete every 5-10 years.

Re: Voyager 1 breaks its silence with NASA via radio transmitter not used since 1981

#190

I think the Voyager probes teach us lots about what's wrong with corporate America. Imagine devices that don't have built-in obsolescence, or licensing that expires, or that isn't built by committee where they just keep shipping requirements around from one department to another. Imagine if it weren't all proprietary and if it didn't have no public or even complete documentation. Think of all the problems we have ins…

I'm not saying your wrong but it's also possible that technology whether created by public agencies or private companies is simply more complicated now and because of that .. more likely to fail over time.
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