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Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

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Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#181

Post by johnnyanmac »

la64710 wrote: post #132
Buttons840 wrote: post #7

On this topic, do y'all think the HN Who's Hiring thread has ghost jobs? I know I've applied to one and never had back (a few years ago).

Also along with ghost jobs do we have ghost candidates? Every job posting on LinkedIn have hundred plus applicants within the first two hours. Maybe many of the applicants are not eligible but this phenomenon points to a massive increase in labor supply for tech jobs. Automation and opening up competition globally is gutting out most of the tech jobs it seems.

The candidates are real. But The qualifications often aren't. Even if you post a job being full time on-site, you'll get applicants who are not even in the same country looking for remote work.

I feel that was the natural conclusion of a system where "requirements" are as realistic as a unicorn. But we're all suffering from that

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#182

Post by kjs3 »

jay_kyburz wrote: post #89
DebtDeflation wrote: post #28

Many companies have policies requiring that all jobs have to be posted both internally and externally before being filled. The intent is to prevent Sam the VP from just slotting his buddy into the job. At the end of the day, Sam the VP is just going to slot his buddy into the job but now you made a whole bunch of people apply for a job that was never available to them. Same thing happens with H1B/PERM, except now it'…

Also back in the day, we would say we need X new staff, corporate would encourage us to advertise and interview, but when it came to extending and offer they would tell us we can't increase head count. Happened over and over till I left.

I have never started the interview process before there was a headcount approved[1]. I have never had anyone push back when I said "I'll worry about that when the headcount is approved, because I got things to do"; but then I can't recall more than a handful of times anyone wanted me to front-run the recruiting process with a fishing expedition. Have things really become that shitty?

[1] To be fair, sometimes the headcount disappeared for various reasons, but that's not the same as "meh...just have a look around and jerk some peoples chains".

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#183

Post by johnnyanmac »

singlepaynews wrote: post #136

I think there’s a legitimate market opportunity here. I am seeking a cofounder to build the job board that vets employers, and makes money by charging candidates to access it. The problem to be solved, imo, is ghost listings. - I don’t care if a company ghosts me because they hired someone else - I care if I spend time filling out applications for jobs that don’t exist I’m not sure how to make participation by the em…

>. I am seeking a cofounder to build the job board that vets employers, and makes money by charging candidates to access it.

Sounds like awful monetization. Dating site issue is right. Your best candidates (so ideally, all the ones you vet) won't be long term subscribers. And sadly, there's way too many grifts in the job system where a candidate paying is a red flag. You'd need to offer the candidates something of value to justify that. Not just "a promise of no ghost jobs").

Is there an issue with the usual recruiter pipeline where you can charge the company some percent of the hire once they get hired? Candidates get hired, company pays a little extra on a successful hire, and your profit incentives come from quality to offer for the companies (hopefully).

The main issue is that it assumes that companies genuinely care about an efficient hiring pipeline. And I've been very cynical in recent times...

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#184

Post by anotherevan »

dang wrote: post #59
FireBeyond wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. And a lot of spam. A few months ago there was a little flame war between a few people. Company posted an ad and someone replied "this is spam, and you don't respond, just keep posting the same ad", and the company replied "no, I own the company and hand write this job ad every month to fit our future needs" which was patently a lie (exact same headcount, exact same three positions, every month for the las…

It's against the rules to call out hiring companies in the thread, primarily because we don't want off-topic arguments and because it would be too easy to exploit it for shenanigans. But since people have been increasingly saying that this is a problem, let's do something about it. My current thought is to add a new instruction at the top asking companies to please only post in the thread if they're committed to resp…

Another potential way to at least surface dodgy behaviour perhaps: Automatically append to a poster's comment links to all their previous comments in Who's Hiring threads in the past twelve months.

I can foresee posters then creating throwaway accounts to avoid this, but the green username would be a give-away (or restrict new accounts from posting on these threads).

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#185

Post by johnnyanmac »

de6u99er wrote: post #70

What a colossal waste of everybody's time. I wonder how demoralizing this must be on HR workers, having to post a job, screen CV's, trying to stay professional while knowing that the hiring manager actually doesn't care, having to constantly put people with hopes off, and ultimately let people feel they are not good enough just because some C-hole wants to bring in his buddy who's most likely not half as competent as…

I'll bite my tongue on my HR thoughts, but AFAIK HR incentives are saving a company money, or making the company a lot of money. You don't necessarily need to hire people if you're focused on cost saving measures.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#186

Post by astrange »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #159
astrange wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The model that Americans would take any job if the wages were high enough is simple but obviously false. For manual labor there's no amount of money you could pay Americans to be farmworkers. For desk jobs there's no amount that'll overcome Americans' cultural belief that you can't do math unless you were born as a special sort of person who is "good at math".

>For manual labor there's no amount of money you could pay Americans to be farmworkers. In this market? Throw me a hoe tell me where to dig. I just need to pay rent.

Well that's probably part of the problem. You have to live within commute range of the work to do it, and people don't want to live in small towns or Central Valley CA unless they're in the respected local landowner class.

I know there are people who do part-time work in oil fields or fishing ships, so that's always possible if you want to move to North Dakota or Alaska temporarily.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#187

Post by ryandrake »

rightbyte wrote: post #13

Hireing and being hired seem to have devolved into a bilateral spamfest. The more applicants per position, the more applications you need to fill. “Always, always, always put networking as one of the top components of your job search strategy,” This is such a strange advice. It is too late when searching for a job. A 'network' takes year to build.

Embarrassing admission: I don't really understand how "networking" works when it comes to getting a job. It's always just stated: "Go network, bro!" but without any explanation of how it is supposed to work. I wish someone could pretend I was a dummy, and explain the process to me using simple words. From start (you don't know anyone working at company X) to finish (you accept a job at company X).

I remember long ago the career development people at my university would tell us to all go out and "network" company representatives when they come during career week. The way it was explained to me was to go up to them and pretend to be their friend, talk about sportsball, drink alcohol with them, gain some rapport or something... It was never really clear what the right magical incantation was. All I know was some people were really good at it and got invited to interview at dozens of companies, and other had no luck at all.

But, just for argument's sake, let's say I go out and successfully manage to "network" you. You now know me and think I would be a good employee. What now? I guess I say "Hey, rightbyte, I'm looking for a job at your company. Do you know of any roles that are hiring?" You say "Sure, here's job position XYZ, and the link to go apply. Good luck!" And now I'm back where I started. Or if I'm lucky, you will refer me in your company's HR system, giving your digital "thumbs up" in that system, and that referral will send me... an E-mail with the link where I should go apply. I'm still not that much better off. Is that thumbs up going to let me skip rounds of interviews or give me extra points when the yes/no decision happens? How does it help me break through the hundreds of other candidates that are cold-applying?

I've had people reach out to me and ask me to refer them for a job with my employer, and in most companies, all I can do is point them to a job link. I'm lowly worker-bee number 52231, I don't have some kind of hiring boost I can hand out to people.

The whole 'networking' enterprise seems like a bizarre, opaque process where nobody can explain how it works, but everyone's advice is that we should all somehow "go do it" as it's an important component of a job search.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#188

Post by raincom »

djmips wrote: post #168
DebtDeflation wrote: post #28

Many companies have policies requiring that all jobs have to be posted both internally and externally before being filled. The intent is to prevent Sam the VP from just slotting his buddy into the job. At the end of the day, Sam the VP is just going to slot his buddy into the job but now you made a whole bunch of people apply for a job that was never available to them. Same thing happens with H1B/PERM, except now it'…

For H1B/PERM, I remember they had to post it on the wall in a public place. Our company posted the jobs on the wall in the lunch room at our office. It has every information including the salary. I guess things have changed a bit since the early 2000s?

That's what Apple was doing. After their settlement with DOJ, Apple posts jobs on their job board as well.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#189

Post by iwontberude »

astrange wrote: post #61
lurking15 wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an outrage once you work at these companies and behold the sheer dysfunction and they're all getting paid wages native American citizens would take.

The model that Americans would take any job if the wages were high enough is simple but obviously false. For manual labor there's no amount of money you could pay Americans to be farmworkers. For desk jobs there's no amount that'll overcome Americans' cultural belief that you can't do math unless you were born as a special sort of person who is "good at math".

100% on your last sentence. There is a massive misplacement of ego in our fellow countrymen that loves to posture as an arbiter of morality and rationality, but has no pomp left over for their individual upward mobility. Very very bizarre and self defeating.

Re: Ghost jobs are wreaking havoc on tech workers

#190

Post by xboxnolifes »

SN76477 wrote: post #22
doctor_radium wrote: post #8

Of the obvious fake job postings I've seen, I always assumed they were attempts at Russian or Chinese espionage. Example: for a very brief time I was a US DoD contractor.

Why do they need my home address for an application? I never understand that. Several have asked me for my DL number

Probably background checks.
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