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What Is a Particle? (2020)

quantamagazine.org

181–190 of 196 posts

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#181
post #159
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or is or it isn't, it does it without consulting you or me or our intuitions. I assume you meant that as an obvious absurdity, but if you were going for that you probably should have avoided the concept of "language", which can be Turing Complete. Still, the main point is, whatever it is, it is, and it isn't asking us for permission to be what it is.

My point is that physical reality cannot be made of something that doesn't exist physically, such as mathematical objects, abstract concepts or more generally ideas of any kind. Do you not agree that this must be true?

You lack the capability to judge what those things are, not because of some personal deficiency but because humans lack the ability at this level. If you dug in far enough you'd find your definition of what an abstract concept is circular anyhow, from the looks of it.

Proving the universe isn't made out of "mathematical objects" in particular is equivalent to the difficulty of proving it's not a "simulation". This is one of the red lines that tells you you've gone too far; you can't prove that. You can't even non-circularly define such a thing in this context anyhow, let alone prove anything.

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Feynman grapples with the question the same way we would grapple with a question from a child: "why is the sky blue?" If you drill down into the explanation, you ultimately reach a statement that everyone just accepts as true, or you simply end with, "no one knows".

The way Feynman answered it looked extremely condescending and anti curiousity. Being pedantic for no reason. When answering you should try to guesstimate what the asker who is not an expert in your field is looking for and then start explanation relative from there. At certain point, yes, you do have to say that either you don't know or humans haven't figured it out yet.

I took it very differently. I took it as him encouraging curiosity, because his point was, if you are curious, and nobody's explanation is satisfying you, then you should go research it yourself and be the first one to be able to explain it to the level you were looking for.

It's Richard Feynmann. He wasn't gonna be like "Magnets attract and repel because the spins of the electrons in atoms in the magnet are preferentially aligned which causes a macroscopic dipole in the magnetic field", and just leave it at that, like he just shared de-facto science gospel, because he doesn't want to assume that you won't ask something like "why do aligned electron spins create a macroscopic magnetic field?" or "Why do electrons spin?" or "is a magnetic monopole possible?"

He is teaching the core of curiosity itself. You can ask as many questions you can think of, but if you're not happy with the answers, then there's no other option than to go out there and do your own science. He is one of the smartest physicists of the last century and he is telling you that you don't have to take his word for it, he will not be able to answer everything for you and nobody will. And hopefully you are still curious after that.

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#183
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get it but I still think these sorts of concepts are also just another level of mathematical abstraction that isn’t necessarily “really what it is” any more than a rotating ball or a math equation or any of the other ideas are “really what it is”

It's very frustrating. The idea that the universe is made of fields is nonsensical. I don't understand why so many physicists keep saying that.

A great lesson one learns as a physicist is that one must develop a new intuition mainly through years of practice. So when you say "It's very frustrating", I interpret it as "this doesn't seem reasonable to me". But it doesn't have to be reasonable - none of us have any intuition for what happens at scales far different from our everyday lives.

The real question you raise is a very good one - how seriously should physicists take mathematical theories. If we were building a statistical model of, say, house prices and construct a reasonable linear regression model, we certainly don't believe that the market plugs the parameters of a house into the model to decide the price. The model is an approximation of the real dynamics of the market and this approximation might not hold in the future.

On the physics front, I would argue no one would consider a quadratic in speed air resistance term in Newton's second law, a fundamental feature of the universe. One can build a reasonable model that results in that term and it might even be a good approximation for some fluids in some speed/density range.

But, when it comes to more fundamental (as of today) theories like quantum electrodynamics, electroweak theory, quantum chromodynamics (all quantum field theories), or even general relativity (modulo discussions of quantum gravity) - both the predictive power and accuracy of these theories is so stunning (matching all the data generated at colliders like the LHC), that one starts wondering if we are no longer dealing with models but a true description of nature. The mathematical descriptions are also so constrained unlike the house price example above, that one can't just make modifications to the theories without violating core principles (and experimental data) like unitarity, causality, locality, Lorentz invariance etc. This only reinforces this view that perhaps this is close to a true description of what we see.

Now it is entirely possible (but IMO not probable) that this whole view will be upended and replaced by a very different physical picture. In a sense, string theory (which is now discredited heavily in the public's eye but that's a story for another day) was an attempt at a different physical picture that resulted in very rich structures that had nothing to do with physical reality.

So, physicists say that because the more time you spent understanding and studying quantum field theory and as more experiments are done (all the collisions at the LHC verify the standard model's predictions including the Higgs once its mass was known), it only reinforces that there's something deep about the current theories even though we have several unsolved problems (dark matter, dark energy, quantum gravity, fine-tuning problems).

Addendum 1: I'll add a book that is not accessible to non-physicists but gives a glimpse into the actual struggle of research and building intuition for something very abstract:

https://www.amazon.com/Feynman-Lectures-Gravitation-Richard-...

Feynman, like many others, spent considerable time applying all his powers to understand general relativity from a QFT perspective but eventually it didn't pan out (for anyone).

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#184
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's very frustrating. The idea that the universe is made of fields is nonsensical. I don't understand why so many physicists keep saying that.

The magnetic field is one which you've probably had a chance to experience for yourself. Wave a magnet around a magnetic field and you can feel it has a different effect at different points in space. Fields are just time and space varying values for physical properties. Is the universe being composed of magnetism and a few related fields really so nonsensical?

Not really, until you go “well, what’s magnetism made of?” and the answer is “a field!” That’s pretty nonsensical.

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The magnetic field is one which you've probably had a chance to experience for yourself. Wave a magnet around a magnetic field and you can feel it has a different effect at different points in space. Fields are just time and space varying values for physical properties. Is the universe being composed of magnetism and a few related fields really so nonsensical?

Not really, until you go “well, what’s magnetism made of?” and the answer is “a field!” That’s pretty nonsensical.

I disagree! I think fields are very intuitive and it's everything else that's nonsensical!

Magnetism isn't made of anything. It is a field, and it's one your can interact with directly.

Compare that with, say, table salt. "What's table salt made of?" Uh. It's made of atoms entirely unrelated to salt, like sodium and chlorine. "What are atoms made of?" Uh. They're made of tiny electric particles zipping around at relativistic speeds but bound together by forces like magnetism.

Richard Feynman does a better job than me of describing this exact problem in one of my favorite physics videos of all time:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1lL-hXO27Q

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#186
post #159
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether or is or it isn't, it does it without consulting you or me or our intuitions. I assume you meant that as an obvious absurdity, but if you were going for that you probably should have avoided the concept of "language", which can be Turing Complete. Still, the main point is, whatever it is, it is, and it isn't asking us for permission to be what it is.

My point is that physical reality cannot be made of something that doesn't exist physically, such as mathematical objects, abstract concepts or more generally ideas of any kind. Do you not agree that this must be true?

Is there some experiment you can do that shows some 'physical realityness' that the mathematical object can't describe?

If not, then whose to say whether the mathematical object is 'real' or just a perfect description? Is the difference meaningful?

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But - again - that is a mathematical construction, which a physical particle is not.

Yes, mathematical constructions are merely a model of reality It is interesting to note that (correct me if I'm wrong) perhaps our mathematical constructs are based on a classical intuition and perception of the universe? And here we are trying to fit that classical intuition into the quantum realm Perhaps that can be related to why shit gets complicated with particle physics?

> classical intuition

I am not sure if the modern mix of group theory and differential geometry which forms the foundation of theoretical physics today can qualify as such, even though the word "geometry" does bring the expectation that we should be able to "see" the things we are talking about.

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#188
post #45

I'm reading "The Big Picture" (Sean Carroll) right now. I'd love to have a real physicist explain this, but: When we think of what a particle IS, we often think as though it were dirt, or a billiard ball, or something. As though there were some other substance of which it's made. At least I do. But the definition is as low as you can go. It's hard to wrap your head around that. Unless you're trained to do so, I guess…

Richard Feynman gave what I consider to be the best possible answer to questions like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1lL-hXO27Q

I knew it would be that video.

His attitude really bugs me, and it’s on full display in this clip - everything about this to me says “I am so smart and you have asked me a question so dumb that I don’t know how to dumb down my answer for you, now I will show how smart I am in the course of explaining how dumb your question is in excruciating detail, so next time you’ll know not to waste my smart time with dumb questions.”

Instead of playing games and being evasive and ‘owning’ the interviewer, he could have just worked with the guy to clarify the question and to talk through the guy’s understanding - he didn’t try to do that, though, and you can tell how delighted he is for this chance to show the guy up. His autobiography is written the same way, it’s a series of anecdotes about times where he was smart and other people were dumb. Really rubs me the wrong way.

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#189
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Richard Feynman gave what I consider to be the best possible answer to questions like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1lL-hXO27Q

I knew it would be that video. His attitude really bugs me, and it’s on full display in this clip - everything about this to me says “I am so smart and you have asked me a question so dumb that I don’t know how to dumb down my answer for you, now I will show how smart I am in the course of explaining how dumb your question is in excruciating detail, so next time you’ll know not to waste my smart time with dumb questi…

> you have asked me a question so dumb

You must have missed the part where he says that it's an excellent question.

> he was smart and other people were dumb

But he was smart. A lot smarter than you and me and the vast majority of people. He was also pretty humble about it, once famously saying that if he couldn't explain something to a freshman it's because he himself didn't understand it.

Re: What Is a Particle? (2020)

#190
post #186
post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that physical reality cannot be made of something that doesn't exist physically, such as mathematical objects, abstract concepts or more generally ideas of any kind. Do you not agree that this must be true?

Is there some experiment you can do that shows some 'physical realityness' that the mathematical object can't describe? If not, then whose to say whether the mathematical object is 'real' or just a perfect description? Is the difference meaningful?

Yes, the difference is absolutely critical. Being unable to differentiate imaginary from real is a serious mental disorder.
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