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Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

mono-project.com

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Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#181

Post by shopvaccer »

kelnos wrote: post #108
rgovostes wrote: post #94

I always assumed Microsoft did not condone Wine or other re-implementations of their APIs (like ReactOS), but that they were protected by DMCA reverse engineering provisions and anyway too insignificant to send the legal team after. Wikipedia says, > Until 2020, Microsoft had not made any public statements about Wine. ... On 16 February 2005, Ivan Leo Puoti discovered that Microsoft had started checking the Windows R…

I think Microsoft has finally realized that its animus toward projects like Wine and pre-acquisition Mono was ultimately unproductive, and a net negative for Microsoft itself. I still don't trust MS's motives in general, but I think they at least recognize that Wine/Proton helps make the Win32 and DirectX APIs a sort of de-facto cross-platform standard when it comes to things like desktop gaming, and that this is a g…

>that Wine/Proton helps make the Win32 and DirectX APIs a sort of de-facto cross-platform standard when it comes to things like desktop gaming, and that this is a good thing for them.

I'm not sure if it benefits microsoft in the long term, because the "backwards compatibility" features of Wine need to be implemented in Windows already as a part of the system. So in the long run wine/proton/mono will implement windows features on linux in an optional/replaceable/modular way in user-space while keeping backwards compatibility for older windows software, while windows is forced to implement (and distribute these features) with their OS and has to sacrifice backwards compatibility if they want to simply their OS.

I would say that the adoption of wine/proton helps the linux ecosystem a lot more because there wasn't a standard executable format for linux beforehand (static? tarball of program and dynamic libraries? .deb file? AppImage? Flatpak? Higher-level language like java?). How do you reliably link to libraries like mesa or even glibc? Now there is a solution: just distribute a windows program and test it to confirm it works in wine/proton. Perhaps it is better for DirectX adoption, but it seems like Vulkan/OpenGL/WebGPU are still superior in terms of cross-compatibility, regardless if you use wine or not.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#182

Post by kragen »

runevault wrote: post #144
kragen wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

not everything running on a 20-mips 32-bit microcontroller with 2 kibibytes of sram needs to be hard real time and failure-free, and of course the esp32 has hundreds of kibibytes and, correct me if i'm wrong here, but doesn't c# allow you to statically allocate structs just as much as c does? i'd think you'd be able to avoid garbage collection about as much as you want, but i've never written much beyond 'hello, worl…

c# has the concept of value types (which structs are), which are stack allocated. Generics have seen more and more instance of getting a Value type like Value Task for stack allocated async objects. But if you add a class as a member of the struct that is going straight to the heap with all the GC stuff that entails

what about global or static variables of value types? i mean in theory you could stack-allocate whatever you want in your main() method and pass pointers to everything, but that sounds unusably clumsy. but with global variables and/or class variables there would be no problem except for things that inherently require heap allocation by the nature of the problem

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#183

Post by BeetleB »

pdmccormick wrote: post #176

I'm genuinely curious, for someone who develops web application backends and larger distributed systems & infrastructure, predominantly using Go and Python, exclusively targeting Linux, is there anything in the .NET ecosystem that anyone would recommend I take a look at? Many thanks.

You may want to look at F#. Because it's .NET you have a large list of libraries you can use

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#184

Post by dark-star »

toyg wrote: post #77
simion314 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mono implemented the GUI stuff like Windows Forms, do the latest windows cross platform stuff support that? Can you run .Net GUI windows program on linux without Mono but using the latest .Net thing ? I know it was not possible in the past.

The whole point of .NET-Core was to remove all the (largely desktop-oriented) platform-specific dependencies that tied it to Windows, so you could run server-oriented .net programs on Linux. So no, afaik you can't simply run GUI apps built with .Net on Linux desktops - that's the reason Mono wasn't simply killed, because it covers that niche (which wouldn't even exist, were it not for Mono/Xamarin's efforts back then…

.net Core still has Windows Forms thoguh? At least I (for kicks) migrated one of my old .net 4.something projects to .net core and it still works and shows the classic Windows Forms GUI.

It's (of course) not portable

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#185

Post by 3np »

lolinder wrote: post #49
zbowling wrote: post #31

I worked on Mono a lot back in the early 2000s (back in the SVN days before it moved to Git, even). This move makes a lot of sense. Things evolved a lot over the years. Mono's legacy goals, which are to be a portable CLR (.NET) runtime for platforms that Microsoft didn't care about, don't make much sense today. Mono made a lot of sense for running places where full .NET didn't, like in full AOT environments like on t…

Is there somewhere where someone new to the ecosystem can get a simple introduction to all of these different terms and which ones are still relevant today? I looked into .NET somewhat recently and came away with the apparently mistaken impression that Mono was how .NET did cross-platform. I guess I must have been reading old docs, but I'm pretty sure they were at least semi-official. Is there good documentation some…

As the OP notes, MS use their own fork of Mono for the .NET Core runtime these days. So you're not wrong but they are different codebases these days.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#186

Post by dmw_ng »

pdmccormick wrote: post #176

I'm genuinely curious, for someone who develops web application backends and larger distributed systems & infrastructure, predominantly using Go and Python, exclusively targeting Linux, is there anything in the .NET ecosystem that anyone would recommend I take a look at? Many thanks.

Modern .net on Linux is lovely, you can initialize a project, pull in the S3 client and write a 1-3 line C# program that AOT compiles to a single binary with none of the perf issues or GIL hand-wringing that plagues life in Python.

Given modern Python means type annotations everywhere, the convenience edge between it and modern C# (which dispenses with much of the javaesque boilerplate) is surprisingly thin, and the capabilities of the .net runtime far superior in many ways, making it quite an appealing alternative especially for perf sensitive stuff.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#187

Post by mark336 »

kelnos wrote: post #108
rgovostes wrote: post #94

I always assumed Microsoft did not condone Wine or other re-implementations of their APIs (like ReactOS), but that they were protected by DMCA reverse engineering provisions and anyway too insignificant to send the legal team after. Wikipedia says, > Until 2020, Microsoft had not made any public statements about Wine. ... On 16 February 2005, Ivan Leo Puoti discovered that Microsoft had started checking the Windows R…

I think Microsoft has finally realized that its animus toward projects like Wine and pre-acquisition Mono was ultimately unproductive, and a net negative for Microsoft itself. I still don't trust MS's motives in general, but I think they at least recognize that Wine/Proton helps make the Win32 and DirectX APIs a sort of de-facto cross-platform standard when it comes to things like desktop gaming, and that this is a g…

If MS was smart, they would try to get the devs working on Xbox projects to use their coding platforms for other type of development.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#188

Post by alerighi »

rgovostes wrote: post #94

I always assumed Microsoft did not condone Wine or other re-implementations of their APIs (like ReactOS), but that they were protected by DMCA reverse engineering provisions and anyway too insignificant to send the legal team after. Wikipedia says, > Until 2020, Microsoft had not made any public statements about Wine. ... On 16 February 2005, Ivan Leo Puoti discovered that Microsoft had started checking the Windows R…

I mean, if wine is a problem they did basically the same thing with the WSL, especially version 1 (version 2 is just a VM, but the concept of running unmodified Linux binaries on Windows like they are native application is the same).

I think that they don't care about going against the open soruce community, given that Microsoft uses a lot of open source software in their products (also, probably violates the terms of the GPL license of such software).

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#189

Post by Kwpolska »

deaddodo wrote: post #72
simion314 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mono implemented the GUI stuff like Windows Forms, do the latest windows cross platform stuff support that? Can you run .Net GUI windows program on linux without Mono but using the latest .Net thing ? I know it was not possible in the past.

.net Core doesn't supply WinForms, but WPF is the far more common paradigm for Windows apps now. WPF is supported by projects like Avalonia on Linux. There are also a few other major alternative UI toolkits, more commonly used by cross-platform (vs Windows-exclusive) developers.

.NET Core does support Windows Forms just fine, but it’s only available on Windows.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#190

Post by starik36 »

eppp wrote: post #74
simion314 wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mono implemented the GUI stuff like Windows Forms, do the latest windows cross platform stuff support that? Can you run .Net GUI windows program on linux without Mono but using the latest .Net thing ? I know it was not possible in the past.

No, they pretty much gave up on winforms when .net core morphed into "the" .net that is cross platform. There are some nice crossplatform gui libs now though.

Not really. Winforms have been updated to .net core. And a bunch of handy features to modernize it have been added.

I'd say it's the simplest and quickest way to go if you need to bang out a quickie app for Windows only.

https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/desktop/winforms/?v...

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