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Apple is America's semiconductor problem

semiconductor-digest.com

181–190 of 246 posts

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#181

The idea that introducing more regulations will foster the U.S. semiconductor industry doesn’t make sense. History shows that heavy regulation often stifles competition and innovation, leading to stagnation—similar to what happened in Russia’s outdated industries. Instead of imposing more rules that could entrench dominant players, the focus should be on creating an environment that encourages competition and innovat…

What are you talking about? History shows that a partially communist country that has extreme regulation has come to dominate huge swaths of global business.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#182
post #165

A weird article. Apple was not the first or the only company to look to East Asia for cheap manufacturing, elctronic equipments, chips, or cheap labor. The trend was started and accelerated by motor companies and hardware just followed suit. Then, some other points are just...there. Apple is America's semiconductor problem because Apple is so big it purchases things in bulk and gets discounts - like every other big c…

>It's one thing to assume the most nefarious intent from the start and then look at everything from that lens. It mostly leads to paranoia, not insight. That’s a marketing tactic that even works on HN I’m afraid. Create an enemy and then tell a story about that nemesis. Our human storytelling brains need to hear tales of good and evil. If you want to get an article like that ranking that’s one way to do it. Unfortuna…

On the other hand if you have ever worked at a high level in these companies they are hardcore evil. Maybe not in this case but they 100% do the evil thing and press it to their advantage.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#183
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> iPhones are significantly more expensive than comparable Android phones This misperception is key to understanding the market, which is really two markets: Android has cheaper phones and dominates there but in the mid to high-end market the situation is reversed because the equivalent Android devices aren’t cheaper and because Qualcomm/Samsung lagged so far behind on CPU performance you’re getting something which p…

It sounds to me like you’re saying that Apple management recognized that an integrated ecosystem (phone, tablet, watch, desktop OS etc…) could offer significant value to its costumers (in Apple’s case, the customer is the end user) while providing sufficient margin to serve as a profitable business model. Google, an advertising company, was focused on giving away free stuff (Gmail, Android, etc…) as an means to build…

This is such a ridiculous take and a ridiculous cited source.

Apple makes 25% of its profit from laundered ad money. Like you need to stop trying to understand a sophisticated duopoly ecosystem from a fanboy blog.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given Android has 71% of the worldwide market share it’s difficult to make the argument Apple holds a monopoly on the smartphone market [1]. Even in the US, until about 2020, Android had a higher subscriber base, and there is no reason the situation could not reverse and iOS drop below its July 2023 53% subscriber market share [2]. Moreover, give iPhones are significantly more expensive than comparable Android phones…

As a tagalong to my comment, I really wish Android phone makers would get their act together and give Apple better competition. If the trends of the last ten years hold up, iPhones might actually become a monopoly product at some point. ;)

Please explain how android isn't competitive with apple.

My experience switching from iPhone to Android is I lost pretty much nothing and gained a lot, particularly by going to a folding phone (which Apple obviously doesn't offer yet). Android is much easier to work with in most ways - iOS is so set in its ways it can be very difficult to do basic things like transfer files from the phone to a computer.

Apple's processors may be faster, but this is becoming an increasingly less useful distinction on phones. The only thing on phones that continues to require increasingly faster processors is stuff like games, and fair enough, but I honestly just don't play them on my phone personally.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#185

A weird article. Apple was not the first or the only company to look to East Asia for cheap manufacturing, elctronic equipments, chips, or cheap labor. The trend was started and accelerated by motor companies and hardware just followed suit. Then, some other points are just...there. Apple is America's semiconductor problem because Apple is so big it purchases things in bulk and gets discounts - like every other big c…

> This is a market failure more than an Apple failure Arguably it's a Microsoft failure more than anything. If they had delivered a version of Windows for ARM capable of seamlessly emulating x86 code with no compromises and released it a decade ago the world would likely be different.

> If they had delivered a version of Windows for ARM capable of seamlessly emulating x86 code with no compromises

This is hardly possible on most ARM chips because x86 has a much stronger memory model than ARM. Also concerning "with no compromises": common x86 implementations have a very fast implementation of the SIMD instruction sets (SSE..., AVX/AVX2, perhaps AVX-512) that is much slower to emulate on ARM because their SIMD instruction set is different. The only reason why people don't realize this is that a lot of common software makes no intense use of these SIMD instructions. Then there are the subtle parts that (as far as I am aware) the ARM FPU handles multiplication of denormalized floating-point numbers slightly different than x86 (both implementations are allowed by the standard) etc.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would Microsoft build something almost no customers were asking for? Even now ARM is niche.

To show them that their battery life could go from 2.5 hours to 8 or more, perhaps. That was the Mac experience that customers weren't asking for yet "wowed" them when it came.

> To show them that their battery life could go from 2.5 hours to 8 or more, perhaps.

x86 already was on its way towards such a goal.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is a market failure more than an Apple failure Arguably it's a Microsoft failure more than anything. If they had delivered a version of Windows for ARM capable of seamlessly emulating x86 code with no compromises and released it a decade ago the world would likely be different.

> If they had delivered a version of Windows for ARM capable of seamlessly emulating x86 code with no compromises This is hardly possible on most ARM chips because x86 has a much stronger memory model than ARM. Also concerning "with no compromises": common x86 implementations have a very fast implementation of the SIMD instruction sets (SSE..., AVX/AVX2, perhaps AVX-512) that is much slower to emulate on ARM because…

Well, Apple seems to have achieved this (for all intents or purposes) on MacOS (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosetta_(software)#Rosetta_2 - "In some benchmarks, x86-64-only programs performed better under Rosetta 2 on a Mac with an Apple M1 SOC than natively on a Mac with an Intel x86-64 processor"), so there's no reason why Microsoft shouldn't be able to do the same for Windows? Of course, Apple designed the M series ARM CPUs specifically for their devices, but I'm not sure how much care went into optimizing x86 emulation?

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#188
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>fixing the work ethic of American Semiconductor Factory employees How do you pinpoint this to be the problem? How are you sure that it's not some narrative used by corporate to excuse outsourcing or putting pressure on wages? I think an industry where technical knowledge was outsourced for cost cutting reasons for decades now is probably having issues because only the managers are left, and they're not productive on…

Anecdotally I have found it faster to order pcbs and get them shipped from China than get them built locally. I’m not just singling out factory workers, they don’t work hard but their managers and multiple higher levels don’t either and I don’t know why. At times I question their motivation to even do business. I also don’t buy that this is a US wide cultural thing, I’ve had excellent on call responses from AWS, heck…

>Anecdotally I have found it faster to order pcbs and get them shipped from China than get them built locally.

I'm not convinced this is because of the workers still. What you have in Shenzhen is that you have everything in one place to build that PCB. Everything your factory doesn't have, you can get from a neighboring company. The supply chains in the US have been starved for years, so if you want to do the same from the US, you have to wait for parts to be shipped from China. Making quick iteration impossible.

Shipping only the finished PCB is of course faster than if the development of the PCB needs multiple shipments of parts.

I don't have a solution for this, but the US outsourced so much manufacturing, that it can't manufacture efficiently anymore.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This does not sound like a complete picture. Apple might depress the prices for themselves, but not for other fab customers. On the contrary, if there is a supply issue, with one customer getting all the production, then prices should go up overall, helping competing fabs. In a situation with a huge production shortfall, it becomes a matter of initial capital, with which governments can help effectively (either with…

>but not for other fab customers there aren't that many, that's the point. Apple is responsible for most of its suppliers revenue as the article points out, otherwise it wouldn't have price setting power to begin with. We aren't in a supply shortage, with the exception of a bunch of AI related chips (the only thing the media talks about, hence the skewed perception) we've bin in a supply glut. Semiconductor revenue d…

> there aren't that many, that's the point.

There’s at least Qualcomm, AMD, and nVidia. All of these are huge. And then there are the smaller niche actors (who tend not to use the cutting edge, but help with RoI by forming the long tail). Demand is clearly there.

> Apple is responsible for most of its suppliers revenue as the article points out, otherwise it wouldn't have price setting power to begin with.

Apple has price setting power because they helped funding the fabs and the process. I agree that the result is not great for the industry overall, but they did not show up one day and kick the other customers out. Again, the main issue is the limited bandwidth because everyone depends on effectively a single supplier.

> we've bin in a supply glut.

Not on the leading nodes, though, right? The ones over which AMD, Apple, and nVidia are fighting. Or I missed that, in which case I would love to have more information (I mean solid, with numbers). That said, if that’s the case it does not help the story’s argument. Oversupply leads to lower margins, but one customer taking a large chunk of production restricts supply, which has the opposite effect.

> AI chips aren't the only chips in the world, DRAM makers like Micron, an American manufacturer are the kinds of companies that are effectively at the mercy of Apple because of how outsized of a portion of the market they are.

DRAM and CPUs tend not to use the same processes, so the only way they are in direct competition is because investment is limited but that point is undermined by Apple financing the fabs. So what is the actual problem here? IIRC Micron is investing quite a lot in new fabs in the US, with the help of the government, which is exactly what needs to happen.

The more I think about it, the less convincing the whole thing is. The story is a collection of rants because the author does not like Apple, but it is full of contradictions and non sequitur. There are some good points beneath, but they are well hidden and not directly relevant.

Re: Apple is America's semiconductor problem

#190
post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>It's one thing to assume the most nefarious intent from the start and then look at everything from that lens. It mostly leads to paranoia, not insight. That’s a marketing tactic that even works on HN I’m afraid. Create an enemy and then tell a story about that nemesis. Our human storytelling brains need to hear tales of good and evil. If you want to get an article like that ranking that’s one way to do it. Unfortuna…

On the other hand if you have ever worked at a high level in these companies they are hardcore evil. Maybe not in this case but they 100% do the evil thing and press it to their advantage.

That’s the story you’re telling yourself to make sense of the world.
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