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In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

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Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#181
post #2

This essay by Neal Stephenson was first published in 1999. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_... The analogy of OS as cars (Windows is a station wagon, Linux is a tank) is brought up in the recent Acquired episode on Microsoft, where Vista was a Dodge Viper but Windows 7 was a Toyota Camry, which is what users actually wanted.

I didn’t know myself let alone computers but anyone know why Vista and Windows 8 got such bad reps?

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#182
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 25 minutes That link is only part 1 (of 7). It's still around 2 and a bit hours of listening in total. https://www.youtube.com/@robertreads4323/videos

Thanks for correcting me.

Thanks for the link! I'm 3/7ths of the way through it.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think your trailing question is a hypothetical but to answer: Screenshots along with text, then use Microsoft Paint to mark up the screen shots. For example, circling the appropriate menu option in a thick red line. Sadly, I do not know how to graphically convey the double-click operation. Its a time consuming and error prone process, best used if the buggy GUI application is abandonware. Otherwise, the new version…

You raise a good point about GUIs changing over time. Obviously, CLIs can change, but that happens less often and is usually in response to a poorly thought out first attempt at providing functionality (or when additional functionality is bolted on).

Scripts are UI glue in more than one sense.

The usual interpretation is that scripts glue together system commands that don't otherwise incorporate one another. This is tremendously useful and is by itself a huge advantage over GUIs.

But the second sense is that vast libraries of scripts keep developers bound to their previous UI promises. You don't capriciously change command-line options without raising all kinds of ire. I've seen GNU tools (tar comes to mind) in which options have been "deprecated" for decades, yet are still available. I seem to recall a very small number of cases where options had their senses entirely inverted, to much protest, and ultimately abandonment of those tools. In other cases you've got generations of programs which support backwards-compatible options with precursors: exim and postfix with sendmail, ssh with rsh, alpine with pine, off the top of my head. Developer headspace and script compatibility are valuable.

On that note, whilst I find the *BSD's extreme conservatism annoying myself, I can appreciate that it does lead to increased consistency over time as compared with GNU userland.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#184
post #2

This essay by Neal Stephenson was first published in 1999. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_... The analogy of OS as cars (Windows is a station wagon, Linux is a tank) is brought up in the recent Acquired episode on Microsoft, where Vista was a Dodge Viper but Windows 7 was a Toyota Camry, which is what users actually wanted.

> recent Acquired episode on Microsoft, where Vista was a Dodge Viper but Windows 7 was a Toyota Camry, which is what users actually wanted. I assume if anyone associated with Microsoft compared Vista to anything other than an abject failure, it's because they are - at best - broken or defective people who were involved in the creation of Vista, and therefore not objective and not to be trusted in any way. Dodge Vipe…

Doge Vipers get a bad rep even in need for speed lol but idk enough about cars to know why

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#185
post #68
post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"By what I assume would be some project contributor ssh-ing into your machine" Who would want that? "Stay away from my house, you freak!" would be the normal reaction. Unless some serious trust is developed, I would not let people into my house while I sleep. Also the actual usual reaction would have been more like: "hey it is open source, you can fix anything on your tank yourself" You need a new module to connect w…

I know you shouldn't look too closely at analogies, but I think there is an interesting inconsistency in the "car dealerships" story: The tank people offer to send someone to look into the car (rsp. tank) but the buyer rejects them from entering their house . That's significant, because a car is much less private than a house. In the real world, if my car had an issue, it would be perfectly reasonable to give it into…

That nitpick over car/house analogies is rapidly breaking down as cars have increased compute and storage themselves, and integrate with other personal electronics, most especially "smart" phones.

Some recent discussion on the border phone search ruling:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=41084384>

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#186
post #3

My favourite part explaining how unix/linux users feel regarding windows: 'THE HOLE HAWG OF OPERATING SYSTEMS'. This essay should be a mandatory reading for all CS students and anyone wanting to call himself hacker.

I teach data analytics and it’s required reading on the first week. It doesn’t soften the blow of throwing people in the CLI but provides perspective to why I am.

Just tell them it's the 'chat interface' to the computer.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#187
post #2

This essay by Neal Stephenson was first published in 1999. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_... The analogy of OS as cars (Windows is a station wagon, Linux is a tank) is brought up in the recent Acquired episode on Microsoft, where Vista was a Dodge Viper but Windows 7 was a Toyota Camry, which is what users actually wanted.

The actual comparison is that Vista was the Ford Edsel (hilarious and widely-mocked failure) but 7 was the Ford Comet (a huge hit). It's a close analogy, because the Comet was actually the next model of Edsel. They just changed the branding. Same with Vista to 7.

[deleted]

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#188
post #2

This essay by Neal Stephenson was first published in 1999. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Beginning..._Was_the_... The analogy of OS as cars (Windows is a station wagon, Linux is a tank) is brought up in the recent Acquired episode on Microsoft, where Vista was a Dodge Viper but Windows 7 was a Toyota Camry, which is what users actually wanted.

And Neal Stephenson acknowledged it was obsolete in 2004: " I embraced OS X as soon as it was available and have never looked back. So a lot of 'In the beginning was the command line' is now obsolete. I keep meaning to update it, but if I'm honest with myself, I have to say this is unlikely. " https://slashdot.org/story/04/10/20/1518217/neal-stephenson-... But people still dredge this quarter century old apocrypha up…

I think its still quite relavent. There are still people who enjoy more diy OS. Now a days they use arch or something. That doesn't make them any better or worse than anyone else. Some people enjoy tinkering with their OS, other people just want something that Just Works(tm) and there is nothing wrong with that.

Threre is an implicit supperiority in the text which is just as cringey now as it was at the time, but i think its still a good analogy about different preferences and relationships different people have to their computers.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> recent Acquired episode on Microsoft, where Vista was a Dodge Viper but Windows 7 was a Toyota Camry, which is what users actually wanted. I assume if anyone associated with Microsoft compared Vista to anything other than an abject failure, it's because they are - at best - broken or defective people who were involved in the creation of Vista, and therefore not objective and not to be trusted in any way. Dodge Vipe…

Doge Vipers get a bad rep even in need for speed lol but idk enough about cars to know why

The first generation or two of Vipers were very raw & unrefined, with ~400 horsepower, no stability control, no anti-lock brakes, minimal safety features, cheap & janky looking interiors, etc. It sounds great to me (aside from the lack of a/c & nice ergonomic interior), but it would be extremely easy to have a bad time if you're an average driver.

I'm not sure about the analogy though, they might have been thinking of later Viper versions where the complaints would be more about cost, gas mileage, or general impracticality for daily use.

Re: In the Beginning Was the Command Line (1999)

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This. And it does not even exclude having a (T)UI. Modern terminal tools like neovim, lazygit, zellij, btop++ or yazi can do many things as window management, image previews and colors as well as having mouse support.

Are there any good tools to be able to ssh into a machine and preview images or render markdown directly in line with the cli?

For rending markdown, I use https://github.com/charmbracelet/glow
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