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Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

security.apple.com

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Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#181

Post by verisimi »

noahtallen wrote: post #178
hexage1814 wrote: post #168

The thing with cloud and with anything related to it, anything that connects to the internet somehow... is that, unless it's open source and the servers decentralized, you are always trusting SOMEONE. Sure, Apple might make their best to ensure nobody – but them – have access to your data... but Apple controls all the end points. It controls the updates your iPhone receives, it controls the servers where this happens…

I don’t think that’s completely fair. It basically puts Apple in the same bucket as Google or OpenAI. Google obviously tracks everything you do for ads, recommendations, AI, you name it. They don’t even hide it, it’s a core part of their business model. Apple, on the other hand, has made a pretty serious effort to ensure that no employee can access your data on these AI systems. That’s hugely different! They’re going…

It's completely fair, because regardless of third party audits, chips, etc, there are backdoors right along the line, that are going to provide Apple and the government with secret legal access to your data. They can simply go to a secret court, receive a secret judgment, and be authorised to secretly view your data. Does anyone really think this is not already the case? There is no transparency. A licensed third party auditor would not be able to tell you this. We have to operate with the awareness that all data online is already not private - no need to pretend/imagine that Apple's marketing is actually true, and that it is possible to buy online privacy utopia.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#182

Post by TeMPOraL »

hexage1814 wrote: post #168

The thing with cloud and with anything related to it, anything that connects to the internet somehow... is that, unless it's open source and the servers decentralized, you are always trusting SOMEONE. Sure, Apple might make their best to ensure nobody – but them – have access to your data... but Apple controls all the end points. It controls the updates your iPhone receives, it controls the servers where this happens…

> unless it's open source and the servers decentralized, you are always trusting SOMEONE

Specifically, open-source and self-hostable. Open source doesn't save you if people can't run their own servers, because you never know whether what's in the public repo is the exact same thing that's running on the cloud servers.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#183

Post by stavros »

loteck wrote: post #23

Some good comments on this from cryptographer Matt Green here: https://x.com/matthew_d_green/status/1800291897245835616?t=C... (I wonder if Matt realizes nobody can read his tweets without a X account? Use BlueSky or Masto man) Edit: here's his thread combined https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1800291897245835616.html?...

He's not wrong that, given that you want to do this, this is the best way. The alternative would be to not do it at all (though an opt-out would have been good).

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#184

Post by fastball »

EternalFury wrote: post #148
__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's true, but also it should be possible to make an OS that people can trust without trusting you, and as users we should encourage movement in that direction.

Good luck. It’s much easier to talk about it. The last open OS I have seen reach a semi-mainstream level of adoption was started in the early 90’s, more than 30 years ago, by some Linus guy.

And (basically) nobody running linux is individually verifying the source code of every little piece of software that goes into it (maybe Linus is), so you're still trusting someone.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#185

Post by devjab »

noahtallen wrote: post #178
hexage1814 wrote: post #168

The thing with cloud and with anything related to it, anything that connects to the internet somehow... is that, unless it's open source and the servers decentralized, you are always trusting SOMEONE. Sure, Apple might make their best to ensure nobody – but them – have access to your data... but Apple controls all the end points. It controls the updates your iPhone receives, it controls the servers where this happens…

I don’t think that’s completely fair. It basically puts Apple in the same bucket as Google or OpenAI. Google obviously tracks everything you do for ads, recommendations, AI, you name it. They don’t even hide it, it’s a core part of their business model. Apple, on the other hand, has made a pretty serious effort to ensure that no employee can access your data on these AI systems. That’s hugely different! They’re going…

I think it’s pretty fair. This example isn’t about Apple but about Microsoft, but we’ve had a decade long period where Microsoft has easily been the best IT-business partner for enterprise organisations. I’ve never been much of a fan of Microsoft personally, but it’s hard to deny just how good they are at building relationships with enterprise. I can’t think of any other tech company that knows enterprise the way Microsoft does, but I think you get the point… anyway they too are beginning to “snoop” around.

Every teams meeting we have is now transcribed by AI, and while it’s something we want, it’s also a lot of data in the hands of a company where we don’t fully know what happens with it. Maybe they keep it safe and only really share it with the NSA or whichever American sneaky agency listens in on our traffic. Which isn’t particularly tin-foil-hat. We’ve semi-recently had a spy scandal where it somewhat unrelated (this wasn’t the scandal) was revealed that our own government basically lets the US snoop on every internet exit node our country has. It is what it is when you’re basically a form of vassal state to the Us. Anyway, with the increased AI monitoring tools build directly into Microsoft products, we’re now handing over more data than ever.

To get the point, we’re currently seeing some debate on whether Chromebooks and Google education/workspaces should be allowed in schools. Which is a good debate. Or at least it would be if the alternative wasn’t Microsoft… Because does it really matter if it’s Google or Microsoft that invades your privacy?

Apple is increasingly joining this trend. Only recently it was revealed that new Apple devices have some sort of radio build into them, even though it’s not on their tech sheets. Or in other words, Apple has now joined the trend of devices that can form their own internet by being near other Apple devices. Similar to how Samsung and most car manufacturers have operated for years now.

And again if sort of leads to… does it really matter if it’s Google or Apple that intrudes on your privacy? To some degree it does, of course, I’d personally rather have Microsoft or Apple spy on me, but I would frankly prefer if no one spied on me.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#187

Post by ram_rattle »

WatchDog wrote: post #147

I'm interested in how this compares to AWS nitro enclaves, which they mention briefly. The main difference seems to be verifiability down to the firmware level. Nitro enclaves does not provide measurements of the firmware[0], or hypervisor, furthermore they state that the hypervisor code can be updated transparently at any time[1]. Apple is going to provide images of the secure enclave processor operating system(sepO…

Aws had to do it this way because of their custom silicon, Intel, ARM and AMD do provide firmware/hypervisor level attestation

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#188

Post by devjab »

buzzerbetrayed wrote: post #132
zmmmmm wrote: post #129

Read through it all, it still comes down to "trust us". Apple can sign and authorise an update at any time that will backdoor it, and the government is the stroke of a pen away from forcing them to, all completely silently. I get that there's benefit to what they are doing. But the problem of selling a message of trust is you absolutely have to be 100% truthful about it, and them failing to be transparent that people…

Your argument is no different than what Apple could do to your iPhone. The fact that it happens on the server changes nothing. Apple could push a button and have your iPhone upload whatever they want to their servers. In other words, based on your argument, you shouldn't trust anything, including locally run AI. You're probably right, but it isn't practical. Edit: The final couple tweets from the Matthew Green tweet…

I think he has a nice pragmatic view on things. I’m EU enterprise we basically view things like picking cloud providers as a question of who we want to spy on us. Typically it comes down to AWS or Azure if you’re pocking a “everything included” service. That being said, I’m not really sure I’m on board with this part:

> As security folks we probably need to get used to that fact, and do the best we can to make sure all parts are secure.

Isn’t that sort of where the pragmatism ends? All the parts aren’t going to be secure… Unless I misunderstood his intention, I think the conclusion should be more along the lines of approaching the cloud without trust.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#189

Post by chem83 »

noahtallen wrote: post #178
hexage1814 wrote: post #168

The thing with cloud and with anything related to it, anything that connects to the internet somehow... is that, unless it's open source and the servers decentralized, you are always trusting SOMEONE. Sure, Apple might make their best to ensure nobody – but them – have access to your data... but Apple controls all the end points. It controls the updates your iPhone receives, it controls the servers where this happens…

I don’t think that’s completely fair. It basically puts Apple in the same bucket as Google or OpenAI. Google obviously tracks everything you do for ads, recommendations, AI, you name it. They don’t even hide it, it’s a core part of their business model. Apple, on the other hand, has made a pretty serious effort to ensure that no employee can access your data on these AI systems. That’s hugely different! They’re going…

What makes you think that internal access control at Apple is any better than Google's, Microsoft's or OpenAI's? Google employees have long reported that you can't access user data with standard credentials, for example.

Also, what makes you think that Apple's investments on chip design and OS is superior to Google's? Google is known for OpenTitan and other in-house silicon projects. It's also been working in secure enclave tech (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20265625), which has been open-source for years.

You're making unverifiable claims about Apple's actual implementation of the technical systems and policies it is marketing. Apple also sells ads (App Store, but other surfaces as well) and you don't have evidence that your AI data is not being used to target you. Conversely, not all user data is used by Google for ad targeting.

Re: Private Cloud Compute: A new frontier for AI privacy in the cloud

#190

Post by transpute »

sneak wrote: post #161
transpute wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For years, Apple has a documented set of security policies to disable off-device processing (e.g iCloud, Siri), via MDM / Apple Configurator. Apple also published details needed for enterprise network filtering to limit Apple telemetry, if all you want from Apple servers are software security updates and notifications. With a hardened configuration, Apple has world-class device security. In time, remote PCC may prove…

Apple does not publish details to limit telemetry. Nowhere in MDM or in their docs do they tell you that you can safely block xp.apple.com (telemetry) but not gs.apple.com (boot ticket signing server for updates).

Thanks, both are listed as required for software updates, https://support.apple.com/en-us/101555

Is there a good non-Apple reference for the functions performed by their servers?

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