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In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

nytimes.com

181–190 of 783 posts

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#181
post #15

Sounds like the Bay Area. We don't like cars but we refuse to build comprehensive transit. To build transit that works you cannot value everyone's opinion equally and have to just make it happen. Some of the worst localized pollution I have experienced in my life was while living in the Bay Area with the massive traffic jams.

>> you cannot value everyone's opinion equally and have to just make it happen You live in a country with the wrong type of political system for that. Valuing everyone's opinion equally is called democracy.

No, democracy says 51% of people can enforce their will on 49% of people.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#182

I just read Paved Paradise as well as The High Cost of Free Parking. This seems like the current gradual trend towards reversing the hidden subsidy for drivers, first by giving them less affordances at remarkably low prices or for free. A few folks in the comments have mentioned a couple of times that it doesn't make sense to make a policy like this without supporting transit. I believe the argument would be that not…

When it comes to transit I think the lol make driving sucky so people will support mass transit is inane because of the backlash potential. Much better to get ahead of the hose than always be trying to grab it's ass. You're not going to get boomers and GenX to take the bus. You probably could get younger generations to do that especially if there are options. Really there should be a high speed rail along the front r…

If boomers want to continue driving, they can. Just make them pay for what they use. Work out the real market value for the space and charge for it.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree, a motorcycle is a complete nonstarter for this reason. It’s just not responsible for anyone with a family.

Would you say the same thing for bicycles, in places without dedicated bicycle lanes?

E-bikes are massively safer because they move slower. Yes you can still be run over by some chud truck but motorbikes are dangerous on their own.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Crucially, the road network also operates at a loss

In the first level analysis. Once you realize the sheer amount of commerce and business that is enabled by roads you see that they pay for themselves several times over.

Once you realize the sheer amount of commerce and business that is enabled by a decent metro system you see that they pay for itself several times over.

That's even easier to measure because these gains are localized.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#185

California, always leading the way, has boldly built almost nothing for 5 decades!

I get its supposed to be a funny joke, but CA has some of the biggest transit projects in the country going on currently. CAHSR is wildly expensive, but its still being built, and will far and away be the best rail corridor in the country when its done.

LA has been building a decent amount of transit for how hard it is to get anything done there.

SF already has a fairly robust and solid transit network, and there have been some great maintenance projects done in the last 10 years to keep it going. Its only current major issue (imo) is the frequency, which still isnt the worst ever. MUNI is also getting new signaling to improve frequency, and a massive underground train station is going to get built at Salesforce (finally making use of a great transit hub).

BART is a great system with some much needed improvements happening currently, including new fare gates and all new signaling. They also just finished upgrading to the new fleet of cars, and came in under budget!

CalTrain is also rolling out their brand new electrified system in September, with hugely upgraded frequencies, that will make transit up/down the peninsula much better.

It isnt a ton when compared to other countries that build much more efficiently, but its still more than anywhere else in the country.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the first level analysis. Once you realize the sheer amount of commerce and business that is enabled by roads you see that they pay for themselves several times over.

Once you realize the sheer amount of commerce and business that is enabled by a decent metro system you see that they pay for itself several times over. That's even easier to measure because these gains are localized.

Right. So let's have both! You can't replace the capabilities of roads with metro and you can't replace the convenience of a metro with roads.

Specifically, though, viewing roads or metro as a "loss leader" is probably an inappropriate analysis.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#187

I just read Paved Paradise as well as The High Cost of Free Parking. This seems like the current gradual trend towards reversing the hidden subsidy for drivers, first by giving them less affordances at remarkably low prices or for free. A few folks in the comments have mentioned a couple of times that it doesn't make sense to make a policy like this without supporting transit. I believe the argument would be that not…

[deleted]

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#188
post #175

The great thing about all this is, when the pendulum inevitably swings back 15-20 years from now, we’re going to get a 20 lane highways.

the Katy Freeway already has 26 lanes since 16 years ago https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_10_in_Texas

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some of the worst localized pollution I have experienced in my life How did you quantify this? Or this a purely anecdotal observation?

Not the OP but air quality monitors that measure particulates at different sizes? It's a pretty standard way of measuring air quality. There's a map of official California monitors: https://ww2.arb.ca.gov/applications/air-monitoring-sites-int...

Yes, I'm aware of how one would do it, I am questioning whether that was actually done in this case or not. Further, I would question, what other places outside of your commute have you measured air pollution?

They offered it as a data point. I think it's fine form to question it.

Re: In Colorado, an ambitious new highway policy is not building them

#190

I just read Paved Paradise as well as The High Cost of Free Parking. This seems like the current gradual trend towards reversing the hidden subsidy for drivers, first by giving them less affordances at remarkably low prices or for free. A few folks in the comments have mentioned a couple of times that it doesn't make sense to make a policy like this without supporting transit. I believe the argument would be that not…

>> I believe the argument would be that not creating induced demand will provide market effects to encourage the use of transit

Induced demand is a concept that anti-car people use, but I don't think it makes much sense.

Imagine a library that only has a few copies of some best selling children's books. There's a very long queue to check out those books. Someone might argue that, "We should buy more copies of the best selling children's books".

The induced demand argument in this case would be: "If we buy more copies of those books, the queue wont disappear, since it is so long, but also, if the queue gets shorter, we might have people who don't use the library because of the queue start using it. We would be no better off!".

Of course in this analogy, we realize the fallacy. People are better off because more kids get to read books. Even if the queue stays the same length, we have more throughput, more kids get the benefit.

Now if we translate that to cars, of course, we see the difference. People who write books like "Paved Paradise" or "The High Cost of Free Parking" hate cars. They really do. They hate the suburbs too.

So when they see something that would enable people who don't currently drive cars to drive cars, or for people who live in urban areas to live in suburban areas, they're of course going to be against that.

"Induced demand" is being used here by languagehacker, as it is used by other people who are opposed to private property, as some sort of technical term that supports their case. But that isn't true.

By adding more copies of popular books to libraries, we want to induce demand. We want people to read the books, and we want people who don't currently use libraries to consider using them. The induced demand is not bad. We had a queue, it was too long, we shorten the queue, and by doing so some people who thought the queue was too long will no longer think that. This is good.

What languagehacker is saying, by referring to induced demand, is that, in the opinion of languagehacker cars are bad.

It is as simple as that. It sounds super-scientific when you use terms like "induced demand", but it is not, in fact, super-scientific. It's just a value judgement.

To me, if you build a highway in an area that has high traffic congestion, and after you build the highway, it still has high traffic congestion, it means more people are getting where they want to be. It's called "induced demand".

Induced demand is good. We should have more of it.

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