US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it • Hacker News Board

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#181

Post by freshhawk » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:20 PM UTC

berntb wrote: post #126

jbattle wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it's as simple as "Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism." Every powerful country uses violence to advance it's political goals. Every powerful country kills the civilians/citizens of other countries, publicly expressing varying amounts of regret.

The parallel comment by salimmadjd has a point about Pakistan maybe being even worse than Iran, when it comes to terror support (I do doubt that Saudi A as a country is worse). I might stand corrected, there. >>Every powerful country kills the civilians/citizens of other countries To explicitly target civilians is serious because it breaks the laws of war, etc. Democracies generally don't do that.

> To explicitly target civilians is serious because it breaks the laws of war, etc. Democracies generally don't do that.

Democracies generally try not to publicize doing that. Unless it's done with drones apparently, then you brag about it.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#182

Post by sk5t » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:22 PM UTC

wissler wrote: post #138

pyre wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "cold" distinction is that there are no open hostilities. There are hostilities wrapped in plausible deniability, and found through proxy wars (Korea, Vietnam, etc).

"No open hostilities" is a definition by non-essentials. It's fallacious. As I already said and as you failed to address. Whether certain people happen to know whether there is an attack or who is behind it does not change anything. A state of knowledge does not change the reality: someone is planning and attacking.

If I had a downvote button, I would exercise it on your steadfast refusal to acknowledge that the Cold War is so-called for the absence of direct military conflict between the armies of the two quarreling states.

Wikipedia does not back your definition, as the Wiki entry leaves room for espionage, sabotage, and other actions that one might consider an "attack" but certainly do not force a declaration of war, mobilization of armies, etc.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#183

Post by freshhawk » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:24 PM UTC

wissler wrote: post #138

pyre wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "cold" distinction is that there are no open hostilities. There are hostilities wrapped in plausible deniability, and found through proxy wars (Korea, Vietnam, etc).

"No open hostilities" is a definition by non-essentials. It's fallacious. As I already said and as you failed to address. Whether certain people happen to know whether there is an attack or who is behind it does not change anything. A state of knowledge does not change the reality: someone is planning and attacking.

You need to tell the political science, history and foreign policy communities they've been using the term "cold war" wrong for decades!

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#184

Post by jpxxx » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:25 PM UTC

underdown wrote: post #177

jpxxx wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I heard there's an organization called the IAEA that's unaffiliated with any particular nation-state that's been at the center of this extremely contentious global issue that would agree with exactly what I said, because that's exactly what they're saying, so uh, enjoy your limp sarcasm.

Not having sufficient evidence to prove something is happening is not quite the same thing as proving it isn't happening.

Let me be clear: there is no evidence whatsoever that Iran has nuclear weapons in its possession. There is no evidence whatsoever that Iran has had an organized nuclear weapons development program for the last nine years. There is some evidence that there was a nuclear weapons program prior to 2003.

This is where you start discussing things: with reality and facts. I am insulted that these facts I am offering are being downvoted ten miles deep when hundreds of millions of lives are affected by the outcome of this prove-a-negative "debate".

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#185

Post by tkahn6 » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:30 PM UTC

salimmadjd wrote: post #123

berntb wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>somehow the US government is finding it even easier to erode civil liberties now than it ever did during the Cold War. Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism. Consider that democracies in general seems to go crazy when they have active terrorism problems and throw out human rights and the law book. E.g. Germany, USA, Israel, Great Britain, Italy, Spain, etc. (The only…

>>Iran is probably the worst country on the planet when it comes to supporting terrorism. Really? Sounds like rewriting the history again. Everything I read pointed 911 to pakistin intelligence and Saudis

That's a strawman in that 9/11 isn't the only terrorist attack to happen in the 21st century.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#186

Post by tkahn6 » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:33 PM UTC

Karunamon wrote: post #159

cynoclast wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, we are the aggressors here and I remain highly skeptical that Iran is even trying to do develop nuclear weapons. All the news outlets that speak English are biased as hell on this. If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran.

> If you want real news instead of propaganda you have to watch RT or Al Jazeera. Both of which condemn the US and Israel. Not Iran. You realize that both RT and AJ Arabic are very, very anti-US biased? Especially RT?

They're also state-funded media outlets.

RT by Putin's political structure, Al Jazeera by the Qatari Monarchy.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#187

Post by webXL » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:34 PM UTC

rooshdi wrote: post #25

joshmaker wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because Iran is a signatory of the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treat ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_Non-Proliferation_Treat... ) and their development of Nuclear weapons is thus in violation of international law.

Violation of international law huh...as long as the law doesn't apply to America or Israel I guess: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_s... http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/05/29/us-israel-nuclear-... Oh, that and the fact that America and Israel can't trust anyone but themselves: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5-9aAFvWXA

I'm sick and tired hearing about these settlements. Wasn't that land captured after Israel's neighbors attempted to destroy it? Isn't Israel respectful to the 20% of it's population who are Arab? Hasn't Israel attempted to give a lot of that land back to the Palestinians:

The Clinton Parameters proposed a Palestinians state comprising between 94-96% of the West Bank and the entire Gaza Strip, with Israel annexing the remaining land, which would include almost all Israeli settlements, containing 80% of the settler population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Clinton_Parameters

Things could be a lot better for Palestinians today, but a remarkable olive branch was shredded up by Yasser Arafat. The "International Community" continues his legacy by vilifying Israel every single day.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#188

Post by SkyMarshal » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:39 PM UTC

wissler wrote: post #99

SkyMarshal wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same sort of stuff used to happen during the Cold War with the Soviets [1]. Cold War doesn't mean no loss of life or destruction, just that there aren't two armies going at it on the battlefield. 1. http://www.damninteresting.com/the-farewell-dossier/

"Cold War doesn't mean no loss of life or destruction, just that there aren't two armies going at it on the battlefield" If so, then "cold" vs. "hot" would be a distinction without a difference. I don't think the populace is generally educated to think that a "cold war" means "overt attacks on the enemy producing destruction and death." Rather, I think most people think that "cold war" means heightened political/mili…

> Rather, I think most people think that "cold war" means heightened political/military tension without overt attacks.

You underestimate 'the populace'. I think most people suspect the 'Cold War' included everything up to outright war. What do you think all the CIA's Memorial Wall [1] signifies anyway? I imagine the Kremlin has something similar.

1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Memorial_Wall

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#189

Post by jbooth » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:43 PM UTC

strags wrote: post #170

"[Obama] repeatedly expressed concerns that any American acknowledgment that it was using cyberweapons—even under the most careful and limited circumstances—could enable other countries, terrorists or hackers to justify their own attacks. “We discussed the irony, more than once,” one of his aides said." "Irony" is the wrong word. It's "hypocrisy".

Welcome to politics. Syria, currently best known for massacring their own citizens, chaired the UN human rights council a few years ago.

International politics is always going to consist of covert actions on one hand coupled with righteous moral statements on the other. See, for example, the USSR talking about protecting the eastern bloc from western imperialist exploitation by, well, dominating and exploiting their countries.

Meanwhile, I'm sure we'll hear from Republicans that this is a case of Obama's flawed moral leadership, in between insisting that we bomb Iran immediately.

At the end of the day, it's about results. The people who released stuxnet presumably think it makes a war less likely by postponing a confrontation with a nuclear Iran. They might be wrong but they were doing what they thought would lead to the best outcome.

Re: US and Israel created Stuxnet, lost control of it

#190

Post by zecho » Fri, Jun 01, 2012, 5:46 PM UTC

philiphodgen wrote: post #82

The fact that the NYT published this piece is interesting. Assume all details are true. Why did the dog bark rather than choose to be silent? And the sources. Assume all of this is true? Why feed the info to the NYT? When coupled with recent revelations that Mr. Obama personally approves every killing of militants (for certain strained definitions of that term), the upcoming election springs to mind as a motivation.…

Two reasons are possible.

First, it's over. Stuxnet is out of commission and the CIA/NSA/DOD have all moved on to other programs. It's an election year and this is the kind of strong-on-Iran thing that sticks with a certain segment of voters who may question Obama's foreign policy. That's a cynical view, but Washington is a pretty cynical city.

Second, Ret. Gen. Cartwright is vainglorious. Here, he emerges as a hero.