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ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

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Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#181

Post by racional »

weatherlite wrote: post #180
racional wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nakba is ongoing, and fulfills the definitions (a)-(d) in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the letter. You can call it a "small" genocide if you want. But you won't get anywhere denying either the facts of what has been happening to the Palestinians, or their relation to genocidal acts as defined above.

Nope not a genocide...by any reasonable definition it was not.

“We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly”

-- Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#182

Post by tptacek »

racional wrote: post #179
weatherlite wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So indeed the Nakba was not a genocide

The Nakba is ongoing, and fulfills the definitions (a)-(d) in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the letter. You can call it a "small" genocide if you want. But you won't get anywhere denying either the facts of what has been happening to the Palestinians, or their relation to genocidal acts as defined above.

Indeed! For instance, Kuwait Nabka'd about 400,000 Palestinians in the wake of the Gulf War. And Syria just Nakba'd another 300,000, with barrel bombs dropped from helicopters.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#183

Post by runarberg »

tptacek wrote: post #182
racional wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nakba is ongoing, and fulfills the definitions (a)-(d) in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the letter. You can call it a "small" genocide if you want. But you won't get anywhere denying either the facts of what has been happening to the Palestinians, or their relation to genocidal acts as defined above.

Indeed! For instance, Kuwait Nabka'd about 400,000 Palestinians in the wake of the Gulf War. And Syria just Nakba'd another 300,000, with barrel bombs dropped from helicopters.

I’ve seen you use the word Nakba alot when describing events other then the Nakba. For example a counter-Nakba to describe the Jewish exodus from Middle Eastern and North African countries which followed Israel’s unilateral deceleration of independence.

I don’t think this is fair, nor helpful. It is kind of like saying that the ongoing Gaza Genocide is another Holocaust. The Nakba is a unique historic event, by calling other historic events the same name it kind of reduces the effectiveness of giving names to events, and what made them unique enough to be named in the first place.

The Palestinian exodus from Kuwait for example was nothing like the actual Nakba. To begin with the victims were already refugees, so they had a place that they could flee to. Second the exile orders were a limited time (I think a week), as opposed to permanent in the case of the actual Nakba. The exile orders were not enforced with terrorism and military occupation.

While the exodus from Kuwait was a terrible human rights violation, it is actually much more like ongoing refugee evacuations from Europe and North America than the actual Nakba. Calling it a Nakba is either denying the horrors of the the Nakba, or exaggerating the Palestinian exodus from Kuwait.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#184

Post by racional »

tptacek wrote: post #182
racional wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Nakba is ongoing, and fulfills the definitions (a)-(d) in Article 2 of the 1948 Genocide Convention to the letter. You can call it a "small" genocide if you want. But you won't get anywhere denying either the facts of what has been happening to the Palestinians, or their relation to genocidal acts as defined above.

Indeed! For instance, Kuwait Nabka'd about 400,000 Palestinians in the wake of the Gulf War. And Syria just Nakba'd another 300,000, with barrel bombs dropped from helicopters.

True, and utterly deplorable of course.

But we have to keep in mind that none of those people would be forced to live in such inhospitable places were it not for the bold, decisive actions of that man who got an airport named after him.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#185

Post by weatherlite »

racional wrote: post #181
weatherlite wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nope not a genocide...by any reasonable definition it was not.

“We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly” -- Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

So the Nakba is on going according to you, you're not even talking about 1948. Whatever.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#186

Post by tptacek »

runarberg wrote: post #183
tptacek wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! For instance, Kuwait Nabka'd about 400,000 Palestinians in the wake of the Gulf War. And Syria just Nakba'd another 300,000, with barrel bombs dropped from helicopters.

I’ve seen you use the word Nakba alot when describing events other then the Nakba. For example a counter-Nakba to describe the Jewish exodus from Middle Eastern and North African countries which followed Israel’s unilateral deceleration of independence. I don’t think this is fair, nor helpful. It is kind of like saying that the ongoing Gaza Genocide is another Holocaust. The Nakba is a unique historic event, by calli…

I respectfully disagree with you about this, and don't see the distinction you're trying to make. I am, in particular, responding to a comment --- from a commenter you agree with generally --- who himself referred to the Nakba as ongoing.

Since this is just a rhetorical point, I don't think it's much worth arguing. I could come back at you with the Holocaust comparison, but what do we get out of that?

So, I'm going to continue using the wording I'm using, but with respect to your objection: heard.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#187

Post by tptacek »

racional wrote: post #184
tptacek wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! For instance, Kuwait Nabka'd about 400,000 Palestinians in the wake of the Gulf War. And Syria just Nakba'd another 300,000, with barrel bombs dropped from helicopters.

True, and utterly deplorable of course. But we have to keep in mind that none of those people would be forced to live in such inhospitable places were it not for the bold, decisive actions of that man who got an airport named after him.

... or, as we've talked about before, the bold, decisive actions of people throughout every MENA country who expelled their own Jewish populations in the wake of the 1948 war --- those specific people are the core of the right wing in Israel.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#188

Post by racional »

weatherlite wrote: post #185
racional wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“We are imposing a complete siege on Gaza. There will be no electricity, no food, no water, no fuel. Everything will be closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly” -- Defense Minister Yoav Gallant

So the Nakba is on going according to you, you're not even talking about 1948. Whatever.

So the Nakba is on going

You're catching on! The Nakba is as fresh as ever. Just ask these folks -- who are definitely in a position to know:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40372975

As the Minister for Foreign Affairs instructs us: "Remember 48".

And he sure ain't kidding. It is all very much an ongoing process.

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#189

Post by tptacek »

tptacek wrote: post #186
runarberg wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve seen you use the word Nakba alot when describing events other then the Nakba. For example a counter-Nakba to describe the Jewish exodus from Middle Eastern and North African countries which followed Israel’s unilateral deceleration of independence. I don’t think this is fair, nor helpful. It is kind of like saying that the ongoing Gaza Genocide is another Holocaust. The Nakba is a unique historic event, by calli…

I respectfully disagree with you about this, and don't see the distinction you're trying to make. I am, in particular, responding to a comment --- from a commenter you agree with generally --- who himself referred to the Nakba as ongoing. Since this is just a rhetorical point, I don't think it's much worth arguing. I could come back at you with the Holocaust comparison, but what do we get out of that? So, I'm going t…

(themself, sorry)

Re: ICJ orders Israel to stop military operation in Rafah

#190

Post by racional »

tptacek wrote: post #187
racional wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

True, and utterly deplorable of course. But we have to keep in mind that none of those people would be forced to live in such inhospitable places were it not for the bold, decisive actions of that man who got an airport named after him.

... or, as we've talked about before, the bold, decisive actions of people throughout every MENA country who expelled their own Jewish populations in the wake of the 1948 war --- those specific people are the core of the right wing in Israel.

Hate to point this out -- but this really is just whataboutism, here.

The MENA expulsions (which we have already acknowledged) didn't have anything to do either with Nakba '48 or the expulsions of Palestinians in other countries in subsequent years. Let alone with the topic of subthread we've all jumped in at here. (Which started with the Nakba after all; I didn't introduce it to make some broader moral point).

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