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Scandal at America's top science fair

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Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We need lottery based admissions. Let schools set a minimum test score, and anyone over that goes into lottery for admissions. Kill off essays, extra curriculars, club sports, summer programs, AP tests, Legacy admits, early applications, and let kids have some life again.

Just make tests hard enough so that you wouldn't need lottery

The lottery sortition above the minimum standard (which can still be set quite high) is the solution to preventing a competitive monoculture that a strict "top N scores admitted" policy would make.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#182
post #24

One of the details that strike me is that the cheater comes from a fairly wealthy background and has no need for that prize money at all. They have much more to lose than gain and this doesn’t seem rational at all.

It's for university admissions. It's not that surprising. There's a lot of fraud in admissions. I've met students who have given TED talks on subjects they have no idea about, written science books with fake reviews on Amazon, etc. all for admissions.

Wasn't there a recent scandal, about celebrities gaming the system to get their kids admitted to top-tier colleges?

I seem to remember folks getting jailed/fired/fined for that.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#183

Isn't this equally embarrassing for the people that decided to award him? I mean just looking at those images or even imagining the sort of research and equipment that would take to achieve something like this, shouldn't have raised red flags easily?

Consider the distribution of the entered projects. Due to the selection process (think evolution-style selection rather than "human judging" selection), all the projects, whether purely-student-driven, student-driven with just a dash of parental help, half-and-half, and the student basically along for the ride as the parent runs a project, are in one big pile. Is there going to be a bright, sharp dividing line? Especially in light of the fact that quality is only going to be loosely correlated with external help?

Perhaps this is an unpopular call but my personal opinion is that the whole idea of a "national scale" science project contest is irredeemably flawed and the correct answer is simply to discard it. It is a common flaw in thinking, often expressed by many commenters zealous to "correct" other people, that if you can't draw a bright sharp unarguable line between the various elements of a group of some sort that you can't claim the group "exists". This is nonsense; almost every practical grouping scheme will always have borderline cases or exceptions. But there does need to be some sort of actual grouping, or some sort of relatively objective way to sort and categorize the elements, that is accessible to the sorter. In this case, while from the objective divine perspective maybe we could create an objective standard for who got "too much help" to be qualified, there is no conceivable world in which the contest judges could ever get sufficiently accurate information to be presented with anything other than a very smooth gradation that they simply will have no handle to make a correct decision with. So the incentives will always be to get as much help as possible and then have human-intelligent agents doing their best to fool the human-intelligent judges, and that's just a hopeless situation.

Of course, the contest will not be shut down. But what can happen and what may well happen is that it will get more and more embroiled in controversy each year as the game-theoretic local optimum approach for the contestants each year becomes more and more to accuse their competition of being "too helped" and thus take out the competition until it is simply a farce. This is the worst game-theory case for cooperation; very limited repetition of plays by any given participant, most likely one, so no reason to care about the integrity of the contest for next year when they won't even be participating most likely.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dutch youth is spending an average (!) of 5 hours and 45 minutes per day on digital media. I was wondering if something like that was at play. Well, here are some hard statistics. Thank you for that. > That's some serious amount of time It's a worrying and disturbing amount of time. Now, the question is: is more time wasted on digital media than was wasted on TV in the past? And secondly: does the current TV time c…

And thirdly: would anyone complain if children were spending 5 hours and 45 minutes a day reading books? Watching television was much more toxic than digital media. Network television spoon fed content targeted at a lowest common denominator to everyone, that content was consumed passively. It was horrible. Digital media allows active selection of content, and provides access to much higher quality information, if yo…

Have you seen what children are doing on their phones? It's not sophisticated discourse on all human knowledge or reading informative articles. It's digital heroin, ads and rage content.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am curious, what is the definition of winners here? Do they make more money or do they invent more successful products/ideas or is it something else?

Money, social acceptance, access to desirable partners, positions of prestige, etc. All the nice things we wrestle over in life. Anything you compete for except the “he was a good man” phrasing in obituaries, the cheaters usually get to have. Even if caught. Not cheating outside of a few really heinous crimes such as murder (killing your science fair opponent wouldn’t be a winning strategy if caught) is an altruistic…

> Not cheating outside of a few really heinous crimes such as murder (killing your science fair opponent wouldn’t be a winning strategy if caught) is an altruistic action.

I can only imagine someone trying to justify cheating would say that.

Cheating on your spouse is okay? Not cheating on your spouse altruistic? That concept is alien to me. I don't understand someone having no self-respect or being completely numb to how others feel. I know some exist, but I can't comprehend.

If there's "winning" in life it's through living a good and happy life. Some time past our teenage years I think all but the most self-adsorbed people realize that being kind and respectful to others also contributes to our own happiness.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#186
post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yiddish is a German language.

Not exclusively. It has elements from Hebrew and Aramaic (of course) as well as from various Slavic languages. A big chunk of it derives from High German but not all.

What tokai said was OK: English is also classified as a Germanic language even though it includes a lot of French words, not to mention Hindi etc.

For that matter, a German word like „Dolmetsch“ doesn’t make German a Turkic language.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#187

Science fairs always have hints of fraud around them. Many of the children putting out incredibly advanced research, beyond their capacity, are benefiting from their parents’ expertise, or friends of family, or access to labs, and such. It’s not talked about much but has been an issue for decades. As a side note, the criticism around this incident seems to have some racial tones. It’s weird to see tweets referring to…

> Or is that just me?

Click around on Karlstack some more.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The child is nothing to be blamed for, it is a 100% problem of the organizers. For a 17 years old, even throwing together such work is already an worthwhile result. Teens is a golden age of compilation and remixing.

>The child is nothing to be blamed for, it is a 100% problem of the organizers. If I,as a child, stole 50k USD, surely i would get thrown into the jail, or juvie. >For a 17 years old, even throwing together such work is already an worthwhile result. Teens is a golden age of compilation and remixing. There's difference between remixing and outright stealing with intent to deceive, for monetary gain. Even more so when…

This case only became severe because they chose to award these money to compilated work with no attribution. If they didn't reward this specific work it would be a non-issue. So by induction blame lies on the offering part.

Doing subpar work is not stealing. Come on, we've been through "intellectual property" already and now this.

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The child is nothing to be blamed for, it is a 100% problem of the organizers. For a 17 years old, even throwing together such work is already an worthwhile result. Teens is a golden age of compilation and remixing.

> Teens is a golden age of compilation and remixing. Yeah, in the arts maybe, but not in the sciences.

You have enough life experience to know the difference. Do teens? Are you confident in that? Are you a child psychologist? Do you have any? How many papers did you publish?

Re: Scandal at America's top science fair

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Teens is a golden age of compilation and remixing. Yeah, in the arts maybe, but not in the sciences.

You have enough life experience to know the difference. Do teens? Are you confident in that? Are you a child psychologist? Do you have any? How many papers did you publish?

I'm only saying you don't excuse it because they are teens.
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