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How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

leonarddavid.com

181–190 of 197 posts

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#181

There certainly is a real concern for astronomers, but the photo illustrations used in the article are selected to make things seem worse than they really are. They're wide field of view, long-duration exposures. That used to be the way astronomers imaged space, with film systems a century ago. But these days astronomical telescopes tend to have much narrower fields of view (like tiny soda straws peering into one par…

You ignore the entirety of the LSST which will take more image data in its first year than all of humanity. It is wide field, and these constellations cannot just be stacked out. You think you are more informed than you are.

OP is not wrong, there is no satellite constellation that can't be "stacked out" That's precisely what stacking does.

Trust me, I'm an astrophotographer, you can check my website in my profile, I know what I'm talking about here.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these days some of the best astronomy is performed by telescopes in space, so astronomy overall benefits by having easier access to space. Public access satellites. The FCC requires broadcast licensees to demonstrate that they're acting "in the public interest". Should private rocket launches have to give a minimum amount of their payload to research and non-profit purposes?

Sure, why not? A Hubble-sized telescope is only about 12 tons, which is only about 70% the mass of what a Falcon 9 can deliver to low earth orbit, and SpaceX does that 100x per year (it's only May and they've launched 47 so far this year). For reference, Spitzer is 1 ton and Chandra is 6 tons. The elephant in the room is that launching one Hubble per year to a Hubble-like orbit only uses about 1% of SpaceX's current…

The thing is, paying SpaceX's going rate for launch only adds a tiny sliver to the cost of a "Hubble-sized" telescope. Launch costs have become very cheap thanks to SpaceX - whether they donate it or not is somewhat like an American family getting a 100% discount on rice...it's not going to change their overall monthly food costs, because rice is already so cheap.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#183
post #179
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rocket launches are far more environmentally non-friendly than planes. You can't just look at fuel capacity. It's the composition and where the waste product gets dumped. Rockets dump their waste much higher up in parts of the atmosphere much more sensitive to it. Comparing a rocket and plane isn't an effective comparison in terms of environment impact. So this: > A single 747 burns more fuel in a year than all the S…

Falcon 9's exhaust is almost entirely carbon dioxide and water vapor. If anything the exhaust is less polluting than aircraft or combustion vehicles, as air-breathing engines create nitrogen oxides.

And yet, that's not true. One of the primary impacts from rocket launches are the heights they reach and the particles they produce, as mentioned in the articles I posted elsewhere.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#184
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I say there is no line. I say there is one: survival. Not only of our species, but of the others, too. We're failing at that, and the vast majority of the technology that got developed in the last decades is making things worse.

OK, but I don’t think tech progress = dead ecosystem. In fact, newer tech tends to be cleaner. We use less land than we would’ve using 1800’s farming techniques, for instance. Nuclear is cleaner than coal. Also, everybody having more money is a huge help for the environment. Compare the size of the green movements between say, Sweden and the DRC. Yes, more money = more consumption, but it also means we can do innovat…

I feel like I almost agree with everything you say, except that I systematically conclude the exact opposite. You seem to keep stopping half-way through every single point you mention:

> In fact, newer tech tends to be cleaner.

Newer tech is cleaner if you ignore rebound effect. It's absolutely certain that in history, new tech has always resulted in more energy use, which is the exact opposite of "cleaner".

> Also, everybody having more money is a huge help for the environment. Compare the size of the green movements between say, Sweden and the DRC.

Everybody having more money means that they can consume more. Do you know who goes on holiday by plane? Those who have more money. It's absolutely clear that those who have more money pollute more, even if they feel good because they drive a Tesla (which is all but environmentally-friendly).

> Yes, more money = more consumption, but it also means we can do innovative things in a better way.

Okay, it is "better" by many metrics. But certainly not by the environmental one. We are talking about the environmental impact here, right? Starlink is technically impressive, but it doesn't mean we should do it. It's just part of the problem, and we don't need it.

> In this particular case, surely extra-planetary infrastructure is better than millions of miles of ditches with lead cables in them.

Surely? It's all but sure. You don't even say precisely what you are talking about: do you account for the cables that are already out there and work perfectly fine? Or do you just consider the cost of bringing fiber to your tent in the middle of the desert? Maybe Starlink is better for that, but we don't need it. In fact we just can't afford it, at this point.

> Either way, our current state of development isn’t sustainable. It has to be millions of times smaller, or an unknown amount larger. I vote for more tech.

This is preposterous. With our current understanding of physics, more tech will certainly not help. We would need a breakthrough that is akin to wishing for a miracle. You may as well wait for Jesus to come back.

But there is more: our society depends on fossil fuels. But not only there is no serious way to replace them entirely (meaning that we cannot save the climate/biodiversity without fundamentally changing society), but they are limited and will become a problem in the next few decades (meaning that society will fundamentally change, whether we want it or not).

You can wait for a miracle, or face the truth: we need to prepare for a world with (much) less energy. And in that world, there is no place for fiber in your tent in the desert.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You ignore the entirety of the LSST which will take more image data in its first year than all of humanity. It is wide field, and these constellations cannot just be stacked out. You think you are more informed than you are.

OP is not wrong, there is no satellite constellation that can't be "stacked out" That's precisely what stacking does. Trust me, I'm an astrophotographer, you can check my website in my profile, I know what I'm talking about here.

There's a bit of difference between the aims of astrophotography and professional astronomy.

Ones getting a subjectively good image where the other is getting an objectively good quantitative measurement.

Do the software "tricks" really translate that well. If they did, these terrestrial telescopes wouldn't engineered to the tune of billions.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP is not wrong, there is no satellite constellation that can't be "stacked out" That's precisely what stacking does. Trust me, I'm an astrophotographer, you can check my website in my profile, I know what I'm talking about here.

There's a bit of difference between the aims of astrophotography and professional astronomy. Ones getting a subjectively good image where the other is getting an objectively good quantitative measurement. Do the software "tricks" really translate that well. If they did, these terrestrial telescopes wouldn't engineered to the tune of billions.

Stacking isn't a "trick". It's mathematics.

I agree my aim is to make pretty pictures, and professional astronomy is to take accurate imagery, but up until I'm making subjective calls about colors, they're not too far apart before the image is stretched to a non linear histogram.

After all, I can't build pretty pictures on crappy data. Astrophotography is a heck of a lot of math

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#187
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Rocket launches are far more environmentally non-friendly than planes. You can't just look at fuel capacity. It's the composition and where the waste product gets dumped. Rockets dump their waste much higher up in parts of the atmosphere much more sensitive to it. Comparing a rocket and plane isn't an effective comparison in terms of environment impact. So this: > A single 747 burns more fuel in a year than all the S…

> is not an accurate summary of the environmental impact of rocket launches. So what is the accurate summary of the environmental impact of rocket launches? 10 times more than B747? 100 times? How would it look compared to aviation? > rocket launches are incredibly disruptive to the local ecosystems of the launch sites. Not according to FAA when they issued license for SpaceX's launches at KSC - [0] [0] - https://www…

> How would it look compared to aviation?

Well the goal of SpaceX is to launch as many rockets as technically possible. Even if SpaceX could only reach the same impact as the rest of the aviation sector, that would be infinitely too much. The aviation sector is already a problem.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#188
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is not an accurate summary of the environmental impact of rocket launches. So what is the accurate summary of the environmental impact of rocket launches? 10 times more than B747? 100 times? How would it look compared to aviation? > rocket launches are incredibly disruptive to the local ecosystems of the launch sites. Not according to FAA when they issued license for SpaceX's launches at KSC - [0] [0] - https://www…

You can just search for it. The general answer is that it is not good, and it's getting worse. The comparison to aviation, once again, is not really needed. Aviation is extremely polluting and damaging to the environment (not just poluttants but also disease and invasive seed spreading). There's nonquestion about that. But it isn't related to rocket launches anymore than other pollution. Here's a couple of articles.…

Are you trying to say there's more sattelites falling from the sky than meteorites burning in the atmosphere? That's almost certinly not true.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on how sticking a $5 webcam on each starlink satellite would quell concerns? I’m in the astronomy community and I can’t quite figure it out. If you could expand on what you’re thinking and some of the science behind it, that’d be great.

Half baked for sure, but : I thought given the ultra precise location and clocks, combined with the laser coms you could build a large array, or a inferometer with a baseline the size of the leo orbit. Could be used for whole sky surveys, transient detections, wide angle monitoring, and high res imaging (granted this last one might require more operational finesse than a 5 dollar webcam c ould give you since you'd ne…

The image quality would average to that of a $5 webcam, ie, it'd still be shit quality.

Re: How bad are satellite megaconstellations for astronomy?

#190
post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can just search for it. The general answer is that it is not good, and it's getting worse. The comparison to aviation, once again, is not really needed. Aviation is extremely polluting and damaging to the environment (not just poluttants but also disease and invasive seed spreading). There's nonquestion about that. But it isn't related to rocket launches anymore than other pollution. Here's a couple of articles.…

Are you trying to say there's more sattelites falling from the sky than meteorites burning in the atmosphere? That's almost certinly not true.

How are meteorites remotely relevant to what's being discussed?
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