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Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

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Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#181

Post by IshKebab »

conductr wrote: post #173
IshKebab wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think t-shirt sizes is absurd. It's one of the few good ways that really conveys "we have only a very vague idea how long this will take". Story points are dumb because they always are just a bad proxy for time. Really though, the right solution is time plus confidence . Instead of "4 days" it should be "1-8 days" or whatever. Unfortunately a large number of people simply can't comprehend this, and also no to…

I feel like if that task took 8 days you’d end up having to explain everything that happened and why it couldn’t be done in 1.

What would you rather - it took 8 days and you said it would take 1-8 days, or it took 8 days and you said it would take exactly 4 days?

In any case, there should be absolutely no problem explaining why it took 8 days if it really did.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#182

Post by mattgreenrocks »

anonzzzies wrote: post #90
jstanley wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do LLMs make working on modern web crap less enjoyable?

Too many hallucinations because changes in fast changing libraries. It makes up functions that were removed and libraries that have been deprecated. With robust stuff that doesn’t happen. It is frustrating. Even copilot regularly includes some react lib that doesn’t work anymore for the past 3 years because it depended on old stuff that is full of security issues, bugs or doesn’t work on a new node etc etc. So then I…

It’s funny because a big draw of React is the sizable user base and library count, but that ends up being a double edged sword when using LLMs for codegen.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#183

Post by pavel_lishin »

DanielHB wrote: post #172
mhaberl wrote: post #68

> Even my last team leader sent me a message out of the blue saying “I think I’ll run a bar. I want to be a bartender and listen to other people’s stories, not figure out why protobuf doesn’t deserialize data that worked JUST FINE for the past three years”. I worked at a bar when I was young, listened to the stories; the most annoying protobuf deserialization issues or 'Agile meetings' are freaking fun compared to th…

Anything you do 40 hours a week gets tiring eventually.

I haven't hit that stage yet.

I mean, yes - work isn't fun. But I have coding side projects I work on, and it is fun for me, still!

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#184

Post by themaninthedark »

mhaberl wrote: post #68

> Even my last team leader sent me a message out of the blue saying “I think I’ll run a bar. I want to be a bartender and listen to other people’s stories, not figure out why protobuf doesn’t deserialize data that worked JUST FINE for the past three years”. I worked at a bar when I was young, listened to the stories; the most annoying protobuf deserialization issues or 'Agile meetings' are freaking fun compared to th…

Programing is fun but it lacks a tangible component, I started my studies as a CS major but after a spending an entire spring break writing and debugging(and basically only those things...eating and sleeping happened if I remembered to) were the second year project. I realized that I would end up working the same way, so I found a major that I can't take with me and isn't just contained in my head.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#185

Post by Scea91 »

jwr wrote: post #146
usrnm wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with doing a boring job for a lot of money and then getting all the fun elsewhere? This actually seems to be the best way to do it to me

It sounds like modern day slavery, or perhaps more precisely "corvee" labor. You have to toil away on your master's land before doing your own thing. I find it unbearable, but sadly much of the world has to deal with it.

You don’t “have to”, you “choose to”. There are plenty of paths out there. Slaves or serfs actually didn’t have a choice.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#186

Post by gedy »

XorNot wrote: post #6
withinboredom wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's quite ridiculous for a number of reasons, well documented by research and experience: software engineers can't estimate how long something will take with any kind of accuracy.

I've always felt this is because estimation never gets treated as an exercise which might involve actual software engineering. You get handed a task you've never seen before, for a system you've never seen before, and asked "how long would implementing this take?" You never get handed a task which is "write as much of a prototype of a system which would do this, so we can estimate how much more work we think is invol…

> You never get handed a task which is "write as much of a prototype of a system which would do this, so we can estimate how much more work we think is involved".

The non engineer types won't hand you that, but I've had some success with proposing that when there's a lot of uncertainty.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#187

Post by vlozko »

sukruh wrote: post #35

Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs. Most big companies are not good if you want to solve problems and build stuff. Especially "the enterprise", where software is seen as a cost center so the less of it the better. The effort of managing up e…

> Most of the people I know who pursue creative/crafting hobbies alongside a software development job have chosen to work for well-known big companies, for prestige and safety, and ended up unfulfilled in their jobs.

Depends on the industry. I've been doing iOS for over a decade. You're right in that there are different dynamics with enterprise that can wear you down. I find that to be less so the case with jobs in the retail sector. Things are always fluid and changing there.

Still, this is a very subjective statement. As someone in my middle ages, I've come to appreciate and understand how views change over time. The 20-something me would have jumped over to new jobs every 2-3 years. The 40 something me recognizes value in work/life balance, stability, and a more defined and often opportunistic growth path in larger companies. And it's at this stage that while I may not fully comprehend the occasional stubbornness of 60-something devs, I can at least approach their way of thinking as not wrong. When you have a spouse, family, and mortgage to support, the potential upsides of a smaller, more nimble company just don't overcome the peace of mind of being in the corporate world.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#188

Post by zith »

themaninthedark wrote: post #184
mhaberl wrote: post #68

> Even my last team leader sent me a message out of the blue saying “I think I’ll run a bar. I want to be a bartender and listen to other people’s stories, not figure out why protobuf doesn’t deserialize data that worked JUST FINE for the past three years”. I worked at a bar when I was young, listened to the stories; the most annoying protobuf deserialization issues or 'Agile meetings' are freaking fun compared to th…

Programing is fun but it lacks a tangible component, I started my studies as a CS major but after a spending an entire spring break writing and debugging(and basically only those things...eating and sleeping happened if I remembered to) were the second year project. I realized that I would end up working the same way, so I found a major that I can't take with me and isn't just contained in my head.

I worked in the robotics lab at my university for a few months. That was a really nice way of making software more tangible. Seeing things move through physical space made it more real.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#189

Post by beeboobaa3 »

krisoft wrote: post #120
mhaberl wrote: post #68

> Even my last team leader sent me a message out of the blue saying “I think I’ll run a bar. I want to be a bartender and listen to other people’s stories, not figure out why protobuf doesn’t deserialize data that worked JUST FINE for the past three years”. I worked at a bar when I was young, listened to the stories; the most annoying protobuf deserialization issues or 'Agile meetings' are freaking fun compared to th…

> Programming is fun, that is why you started doing it. For some. I certainly started that way. But many of my friends at Uni started from a different point. I heard many describing how they choose computer engineering because it is perceived as a good career or because they heard it pays a lot. I'm not sure if those people have the same "Programming is fun, that is why you started doing it." to fall back to.

Sure, but that's their problem. If you choose to fill your life with an activity you know you won't enjoy then, well, that's your choice.

Re: Woodworking as an escape from the absurdity of software

#190

Post by peteradio »

mavamaarten wrote: post #14
withinboredom wrote: post #3

Supporting software is the hardest job, IMHO. People ask some really dumb stuff -- not out of stupidity, but of ignorance; they just don't know what they are asking. To them, the "why is this broken" is "100% your fault and 100% fixable but you are too lazy to fix it." It's maddening, annoying, and 99% of the time, not worth dealing with if you can help it.

Absolutely. People nag our customer service until they get redirected to us (software engineers). When you finally spend expensive time looking into their issue, finding the root cause on their end, take the time to explain it in detail, more often than not the answer is among the lines of "couldn't be bothered to read your response, it still doesn't work, fix it!". I love software development. I love building both s…

Customer service for software should be high skilled and paid correspondingly. They should be able to take a customers project and reproduce the issue and likely answer the issue without involving software dev. I worked under a place that operated like this and thought that the issues we did see were legitimate and it fostered a desire to help the customer rather than resent them. Customer service was not easy there.
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