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Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

learncodethehardway.org

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Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#181

Post by xanados »

Smudge wrote: post #165
laughinghan wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You did read it, and he's wrong, and that's why you wrote an article that did not respond to his (supposedly wrong) arguments at all, and instead presented an ad hominem attack saying he "[gets] off on making beginners feel like they're worthless for attempting something"?

Not all insults are ad hominem . For this to be ad hominem , he would have to be saying that the reason Attwood was wrong was because he "gets off on making beginners feel like they're worthless..." Here's a quick illustration: Ad Hominem: Jeff Attwood gets off on being an ass. Therefore he is wrong. Not Ad Hominem: Jeff Attwood gets off on being an ass. Incidentally, he is also wrong.

Technically you may be right, if one is in a debate club perhaps. In a real world debate the close position of two elements, especially when one is composed of emotional content, draws a strong implied link between the two points even if they are separate. It's not a compelling defense to say that everyone should be an expert at logical debate and should know to ignore the insults one heaps on one's opponents.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#182

Post by icebraining »

alecbenzer wrote: post #173
icebraining wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sure learning a second language is fun, but I get annoyed when people try and make it seem like it's absolutely vital to do so. I'm guessing you're a native English speaker? Because I can tell you that in many parts of the world, learning a second language is essential if you want a decent job and access to the vast amounts of knowledge, culture and people that the Internet provides.

I suppose I didn't consider that -- yes, I am a native English speaker.

I didn't mean it as a criticism - it's easy to overlook what we take for granted, and I'm no exception.

But where I live, I notice very clearly the difficulties and disadvantages that not knowing English has, and even being able to read is not enough: my parents, for example, are certainly not uneducated people, yet they're not able to fully understand much of spoken English, which means they're restricted to subtitled content - fewer films, no free university lectures, no Khan Academy, almost no podcasts, etc.

And I'm in an European country!

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#183

Post by dbecker »

gregors wrote: post #169
dbecker wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The title was meant as an attention grabber, but the text does not suggest that NO ONE should learn to code. The text only disputes that EVERYONE should learn to code.

back up 200 years and replace coding with reading...

Life was hard 200 years ago. Taking the time to learn to read would have been a major hardship for some people, and many (most of whom could not afford books) may not have used the skill much.

I think it was reasonable for some people not to learn to read 200 years ago.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#184

Post by Tsagadai »

prayag wrote: post #127
nboshart wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But it IS a life skill. It's not comparable to reading or writing maybe, but it is comparable to financial planning. People don't learn to write budgets properly so they go broke. People don't know how computers work, even just the basics, but operate these machines every day as part of their work and their home life. Knowing how to use a command line to look for viruses, how to monitor your home network, or even wha…

I would agree that it is more of life skill than say learning about European history. Or calculus. But so is basic electronics and basic electrical engineering. Where do we draw the line in the modern world?

Wherever you want. It's your life, learn what you want to. You don't have to wait for some internet celebrity to tell you what you should or shouldn't be learning.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#185

Post by dbecker »

scottbruin wrote: post #145
laughinghan wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does. Jeff's article then proceeds to present a very reasonable argument to consider for why you might not want to code, specifically, there are many useful skills in the world and maybe there's one that would serve you better than coding. Your article completely ignores Jeff's article and presents what amounts to an ad hominem attack on Jeff, claiming he's trying to make beginners feel like losers. Do you ho…

To be fair, titles should give some idea of what's in an essay or post. If you use a linkbait headline is it that unreasonable to address the more ridiculous point made by the headline?

Maybe it's fair to criticize the headline.

But it's silly to criticize people's reading comprehension on the basis that they read the article rather than just the headline.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#186

Post by gaelian »

sklipo wrote: post #180
gregors wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

back up 200 years and replace coding with reading...

back up 200 years and replace plumbing with reading... Your argument isn't evidence for anything at all. There's a big difference between reading and coding: reading is a very useful method of communication. Everyone should be literate just like everyone should be able to speak. Coding, on the other hand, is much more along the lines of plumbing than language.

There was a book written by Douglas Rushkoff called Program or be programmed[1] wherein he asserts quite a compelling argument for why learning at least a basic understanding of programming and how a computer works actually is (or very soon will be) just as important as being able to read.

The basic crux of the issue for me is this: you can control a society via the flow of information through that society. Both reading and more recently, programming are activities intimately connected to the flow of information through modern society. Along with an understanding of programming comes a greater understanding of computers to computer networks to privacy issues and all manner of things that more people should be thinking about more conciously, regardless of whether they wish to program as a career.

While no doubt the flow of material through plumbing pipes is also quite important for societies in general, I don't think an understanding of plumbing affords quite the same insights and protections against being potentially manipulated by the powers that be as one might acquire through the pursuit of reading and programming.

1. http://programorbeprogrammed.com/

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#187

Post by ahquresh »

cletus wrote: post #41

Great post. I have an awful lot of respect for Zed Shaw and what he's done (and, no, not for "Rails is a Ghetto" but for his directed learning programming books, which IMHO are probably the best approach for newcomers). I'm disappointed that Jeff has taken what is essentially an elitist and exclusionary view. Programming is not a zero sum game. Every new programmer isn't a threat to your livelihood and your existence…

I agree with you completely, I do not know much about Zed Shaw, being a fairly new and somewhat young programmer but the post leads me to believe that programming should be a part of our general education along with math and the sciences. One does not have to make a career out of it, but having basic understanding of programming and just the general technologies that dominate our lives today can go a long way in securing a strong future for individuals and society as a whole.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#188

Post by Locke1689 »

xanados wrote: post #181
Smudge wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all insults are ad hominem . For this to be ad hominem , he would have to be saying that the reason Attwood was wrong was because he "gets off on making beginners feel like they're worthless..." Here's a quick illustration: Ad Hominem: Jeff Attwood gets off on being an ass. Therefore he is wrong. Not Ad Hominem: Jeff Attwood gets off on being an ass. Incidentally, he is also wrong.

Technically you may be right, if one is in a debate club perhaps. In a real world debate the close position of two elements, especially when one is composed of emotional content, draws a strong implied link between the two points even if they are separate. It's not a compelling defense to say that everyone should be an expert at logical debate and should know to ignore the insults one heaps on one's opponents.

You need to learn the difference between insults and logical fallacies. This has nothing to do with whether or not insults are bad in a discussion (they almost always are), it has to do with the poster citing the ad hominem fallacy incorrectly because they think using Latin words will strengthen their point.

Re: Please Don't Become Anything, Especially Not A Programmer

#190

Post by mkramlich »

I think what Zed missed, and possibly Jeff as well, is that only a small percentage of people really have what it takes, brain-wise, to do programming. And not just to do programming but to not hate it. The intersection of those two things. And I'm not talking just about writing a simple recipe-like script. But really understanding how computers work, memory, networking, recursion, threads, etc. Just as only a small percentage of people have the right mental chops to do advanced math or physics, etc. Writing Hello World? Sure, just about anyone can "learn" to write that. Writing an operating system? No way in hell. You'd be surprised by what most people are like. Not us. Not the typical Hacker News type. Not geeks. But most people. Not saying they're dumb. They're just different. Really. Trust me. You'll understand, hopefully, after you've been on the planet a few decades in the real world.
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