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macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

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Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#181

Post by nullwarp »

bzzzt wrote: post #34
baq wrote: post #28

Been saying this for as long as I’ve been using macOS: it is not a developer friendly OS and am close to the conclusion that this reputation is a psy-op. Yeah it’s pretty, it mostly works when the box is first turned on and the hardware is unmatched but macOS itself is actually subpar. QA seems second tier, things you’d except from other OSes like, I don’t know, using a third party second display are just bad experie…

Strange. I've got the complete opposite experience. Most displays work fine. It helps if you stick with models that advertise at least a bit of macOS support (like some Dells or Samsungs). Docker sucks, but there's Orbstack. I don't care for posix, but most of my *nix tools are available in Homebrew. Network is steady and more bulletproof than wireless on Linux. Is your experience based on a recent mac?

> Network is steady and more bulletproof than wireless on Linux.

I gotta disagree hard here. Macs have by far the most obnoxious and temperamental WiFi stack I've ever experienced. Constant disconnects, have to turn it off and on to get it to bother looking for APs again. All of them constantly trigger bad experience scores in UniFi.

Absolutely subpar compared to any of my Linux devices, even the raspberry pi jammed inside a metal box.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#182

Post by jsheard »

bzzzt wrote: post #166
user_of_the_wek wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is irking me too. You really need a high density display to enjoy macOS, it shouldn't be like that. I guess they like to leave the baggage behind.

"Retina" Macs were introduced 12 years ago. So what should Apple do? Expend serious time and engineering effort to fix problems with hardware that's far behind the times? Nobody's calling for the return of MCGA graphics so it's clear there's a cutoff needed somewhere.

I can agreee with accommodating old ~100ppi displays not being worth it past a certain point, but the way that Apple handles high DPI by standardizing on ~220ppi across the board is setting the bar way higher than most people can afford even today. The cheapest large format monitors which meet that standard are at least $1500, when you can get a 4K 160ppi monitor for as little as $200, and 160ppi is absolutely fine on systems like Windows which natively support fractional scaling. I think Wayland originally planned to work like macOS but they are in the process of implementing true fractional scaling akin to Windows.

Another factor is that focusing on pixel density above all else comes at the expense of pixel speed, there are no large monitors which meet Apples 220ppi standard and have a refresh rate of 120hz or better, no matter how much money you're willing to spend, they just don't exist.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#183

Post by vbezhenar »

pdimitar wrote: post #171
vbezhenar wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here are few particular things that I like about development in my mac: 1. Terminal is very usable, compared to Windows cmd. Modern Gnome Terminal is good, though. 2. Cmnd+C for copy, Ctrl+C for SIGINT. 3. Touch ID instead of root password, which works with Bluetooth keyboard as well, and that's with absolutely minimal configuration, uncommenting single line.

1. Who cares? I use iTerm2, Alacritty and Rio and they all work very well. Programmers don't have trouble installing alternative programs. 2. I remember the XFCE4 Terminal using Ctrl-Shift-C and Ctrl-Shift-V for copy/paste and liking it, no more SIGINT by mistake. But IMO a minor gripe, you can remap keys for copy/paste in most self-respecting terminal emulators anyway. 3. I agree on that but passwordless sudo saved…

1. I care, because I prefer default setups as much as possible. Third-party software is often a burden.

2. That's bad approach, because it'll be Ctrl+Shift+C in terminal, but Ctrl+C in your IDE. That's inconsistent. I'm usually setting it the other way: Ctrl+C is copy and Ctrl+Shift+C is interrupt, but it's not as good as two different shortcuts.

3. I would say, that it's not only about sudo, it's about other things like revealing passwords in browser, using touch id for passkey authentication, laptop unlock, of course. Those are not strictly developer things, but it's very convenient when it works uniformly. And having some security measure is better than having none, even if it as simple as touch the button, it might cause some second thought. For example few days ago I did a mistake and installed caddy (terrible software, don't recommend). After launch it started tinkering with my system, installing some certificates, and if not for Touch ID, I'd end up with system in unknown state. Probably it'd happily corrupted my system with passwordless sudo.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#184

Post by pdimitar »

vbezhenar wrote: post #183
pdimitar wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Who cares? I use iTerm2, Alacritty and Rio and they all work very well. Programmers don't have trouble installing alternative programs. 2. I remember the XFCE4 Terminal using Ctrl-Shift-C and Ctrl-Shift-V for copy/paste and liking it, no more SIGINT by mistake. But IMO a minor gripe, you can remap keys for copy/paste in most self-respecting terminal emulators anyway. 3. I agree on that but passwordless sudo saved…

1. I care, because I prefer default setups as much as possible. Third-party software is often a burden. 2. That's bad approach, because it'll be Ctrl+Shift+C in terminal, but Ctrl+C in your IDE. That's inconsistent. I'm usually setting it the other way: Ctrl+C is copy and Ctrl+Shift+C is interrupt, but it's not as good as two different shortcuts. 3. I would say, that it's not only about sudo, it's about other things…

1. It's your own idealistic preference. Low priority for everyone else.

2. Sure, I don't disagree, I was mostly saying the whole stuff is configurable and we can tune it however way it's more convenient for us.

3. I agree and I'd want a fingerprint or a proper FaceID (with depth-radar and lasers and all, not just something that can be duped by print photos) on my computers but it's not something that would stop me from buying an otherwise excellent machine if it doesn't have this feature.

As for Caddy, let's agree to disagree. :D I will concede that many programs' installers are quite dumb but Caddy itself is excellent once you start it up and it starts doing its own thing.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#185

Post by bzzzt »

jsheard wrote: post #182
bzzzt wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Retina" Macs were introduced 12 years ago. So what should Apple do? Expend serious time and engineering effort to fix problems with hardware that's far behind the times? Nobody's calling for the return of MCGA graphics so it's clear there's a cutoff needed somewhere.

I can agreee with accommodating old ~100ppi displays not being worth it past a certain point, but the way that Apple handles high DPI by standardizing on ~220ppi across the board is setting the bar way higher than most people can afford even today. The cheapest large format monitors which meet that standard are at least $1500, when you can get a 4K 160ppi monitor for as little as $200, and 160ppi is absolutely fine o…

On macOS 4K displays are fine. Not the best, but fine.

I think the display resolution market suffers from some opposing directions: people who do productivity work like high resolutions, but since Windows (majority of the market) still seems to struggle to scale UI elements correctly some people prefer lower resolution. Also, gamers associate high resolutions with heavy GPU requirements or lower framerates. And then there are companies that are used to spending the absolute minimum on screens that are barely 1080p.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#186

Post by arghwhat »

quotemstr wrote: post #113
arghwhat wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "safe fetch" code relies on a signal handler (either here https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/48717d63cc58f693f0917e61... or here https://github.com/openjdk/jdk/blob/3c70f26b2f3fa9bc143e2506... ), which is considered asynchronous delivery (i.e., delivered mid-execution, see `man 7 signal`) - which is why the `async-signal-safe` manpage simply states that it is functions that can safely be called within a signal h…

It's not "bizarre" at all. It's a direct translation of hardware CPU traps to userspace API. That's what signal handers are : virtualized interrupts! There's nothing wrong with using signals to achieve performance levels otherwise not possible.

This did not improve performance, it was just an unnecessary hack. The authors agree, as they removed it realizing it was not an optimization.

UNIX signals are in no way or form direct translations of hardware CPU traps. The kernel handles hardware traps, which may or may not lead to UNIX signals. Heck, with userfaultfd, a different userspace process could be handling, or injecting, the fault! Not to mention VMs, where the the guest userspace is very far away from any real hardware traps.

There are basically two classes of UNIX signals: Signals that indicate that you might need to take some action (SIGTERM, SIGALRM, SIGUSR1, ...), and signals that indicate that your process did something illegal (SIGILL, SIGSEGV, SIGFP, ...). There is a very, very limited number of cases where handling these errors make sense, and trying to be "clever" to make (faulty and ill-advised) performance optimizations is not one of them.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#187

Post by vbezhenar »

pdimitar wrote: post #184
vbezhenar wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. I care, because I prefer default setups as much as possible. Third-party software is often a burden. 2. That's bad approach, because it'll be Ctrl+Shift+C in terminal, but Ctrl+C in your IDE. That's inconsistent. I'm usually setting it the other way: Ctrl+C is copy and Ctrl+Shift+C is interrupt, but it's not as good as two different shortcuts. 3. I would say, that it's not only about sudo, it's about other things…

1. It's your own idealistic preference. Low priority for everyone else. 2. Sure, I don't disagree, I was mostly saying the whole stuff is configurable and we can tune it however way it's more convenient for us. 3. I agree and I'd want a fingerprint or a proper FaceID (with depth-radar and lasers and all, not just something that can be duped by print photos) on my computers but it's not something that would stop me fr…

> As for Caddy, let's agree to disagree. :D I will concede that many programs' installers are quite dumb but Caddy itself is excellent once you start it up and it starts doing its own thing.

Installing root certificate into my system without any explicit verbose flags is something malware would do. The developer who thought that's a good thing is the one whose software I'd avoid. His views on usability are completely opposite to mine. What else will he do by default? Listen on 0.0.0.0? Add firewall exception for usability? Create tunnel to the Internet automatically so I can share my work with others without those pesky port forwardings? Some people might like it, but not me, I prefer things as explicit as possible, when it comes to questionable features.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#188

Post by dimask »

hmottestad wrote: post #116
vardump wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not saying you're wrong, but what else is there that just works and is usable instantly when you open the lid? While my work Windows laptop might be faster, it's certainly not the one I'm going to pick in a pinch or when I want to travel with just one laptop. The best mobile configuration I know right now is a Macbook Pro + Parallels. Even with all of its deficiencies. Are there any good Linux laptops with similar ex…

You could always install Linux on your Macbook Pro. Personally I prefer MacOS though.

Not so simple for apple silicon.

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#189

Post by exabrial »

grodriguez100 wrote: post #50

I find it difficult to imagine how a change like this (sending a SIGKILL to the process instead of SIGSEGV on a page fault) can be done in the final release and not in one of the EA releases or betas. It is clearly a breaking change with no easy workaround (since SIGKILL cannot be caught), for a behaviour which is well defined by POSIX. Even if you momentarily ignore the reasons why someone thought this could be a go…

[flagged]

Re: macOS Sonoma 14.4 might break Java on your machine

#190

Post by paulmd »

blashyrk wrote: post #164
alex_duf wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

changing the volume of the sound under high CPU load will also move the balance one side. I often have to re-center the balance, it's driving me nuts.

How the hell does something like that even happen lol

increase-left-volume; increase-right-volume;

inside a function that can be preempted

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