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Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

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Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#181

Post by godelski »

ghaff wrote: post #118
godelski wrote: post #33

Wouldn't this be expected? He announced himself as a Google employee and this "represented." I do think it is dumb we act as if some random employee acts as a representative for their company, but here we are with all our social media taglines "my views are that of my own and not of my sugar daddy." I'll totally stand by these peoples' rights to make such protests. You gotta ruffle some feathers for what you believe…

I've been acutely aware for a very long time that anything I post on the Internet or say at a conference, whether explicitly public or to people who are all trusted to keep it private (and good luck with that as they repeat it to one or two people), could be attributed to me as a company employee in print. Maybe you get far enough away from your professional context or have a pseudonymous personal social media accoun…

I'm not saying it is a new thing or even a weird thing. I just think this it is odd that anyone would assume an employee of a company is a meaningful representative of a company and its values unless that employee is explicitly speaking on the company's behalf in their specialized role. Like a company spokes person, or an engineer giving a presentation at an event the company sent them as a representative to (and even then I'd only see them as a technical representative).

It was more side commentary on how any large organizational structure is non-homogeneous. I mean we can say the same about countries: America, Israel, Palestine, China, Russia, . I believe we have words for aggregating (pigeon holing) the views of diverse nonhomogeneous groups based on a shared physical attribute of said group that has no causal relationship to said views. A person is not their {company,country,race,religion,political group} or many other things. I thought that was the point of our cultural progression: to recognize that a tree is not a forest. Even if it can help to talk about a forest at times, it would be absurd to think all the trees are the same. Must be pretty dense ;)

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#183

Post by user_7832 »

CommanderData wrote: post #134
hd4 wrote: post #65

really hoping dang doesn't let this get flagged off the front page like similar threads on this subject, even though it's obviously contentious. this is a conversation that needs to be had and also recorded for posterity.

Israel has a professional misinformation and cyber warfare arm. It isn't even denied. Professional as in AC office's and salaried. I have no doubt they actively work in forums like these and try their best at applying pressure for which works sometimes and other times does not.

Paul Graham himself was a target of their work, he disclosed on twitter.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#184

Post by dekhn »

izietto wrote: post #55
c0mbonat0r wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

> propaganda news outlets Is ONU considered a propaganda news outlet nowadays? https://www.ochaopt.org/content/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-i...

I would say that the UN uses propaganda but in this case the page you linked to is a fairly factual description of the current situation.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#185

Post by GordonS »

sanderjd wrote: post #122
hayst4ck wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's a good way to take a stance?

I mean, this may be a good way to take a stance, for someone who deeply cares about a particular issue. But it's also definitely going to result in being fired, from any company. The two things aren't incompatible. Lots of good ways to take a stance have deprived lots of people taking those stances of far more than just their jobs, like their freedom, temporarily in many cases (like Dr. King) and permanently in many…

I'm with you on this.

What US-backed Israel is doing is utterly abhorrent, and protesting makes sense; I can understand why an employee wouldn't want to aid them in any way - but with oil and gas off the coast of Northern Gaza, the US about to build a port for it, and the US, UK, France and Germany govs supporting Israel to the hilt, real sanctions are not going to happen. Hell, the west is still supplying Israel with weapons, and Israel hasn't even been kicked out of EuroVision!

But... one person disrupting a meeting will have limited effect, and is guaranteed to result in a firing.

IMO a better plan would have been a petition, signed by as many employees as possible. Failing that, looking at strike action through union(s) could be a good idea. A single employee has very little power - but if a significant number banded together, their power is much greater.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#186

Post by LordDragonfang »

lordfrito wrote: post #125

Lately it seems that more and more rank-and-file employees believe that a company has some sort of moral obligation to take their political opinions into consideration. Corporations aren't democracies. Unless you're an executive or high ranking decision maker, you're along for the ride. I don't ask my kids for their opinion about my home budget, what house I should buy, etc. So it is at work. Expecting a company to k…

While it's absolutely true that corporations are amoral dictatorships, not democracies, companies like Google spend an awful lot of PR time and money virtue signaling otherwise (and I use that term not in a derogatory way, but a literal way - they are deliberately signaling virtue, often in conflict with their actual actions.)

If Google want to pretend their founding principal is "do the right thing", and put that front and center in their employee handbook - well, I'd say they have limited ability to complain when employees act on that, at least without being exposed for hypocrisy. Google can't have its cake and eat it too.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#187

Post by user_7832 »

wilg wrote: post #176
user_7832 wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is that it's not automatically right either to fire people, just because it is a common practice. Maybe I should've used another example like lobbying or politicians' insider trading as a practice that's common but not necessarily right.

Sure, common practice doesn’t mean it’s automatically right but it is an indication that it’s generally accepted for reasons that may be valid. So it’s reasonable evidence to cite, and is a method of explaining that your argument now has to account for the general case.

I partially/mostly agree, I think it's more of "it's good enough because it's either good or it's close enough to not bother speaking/complaining/doing anything about it". Eg targeted ads are accepted, but banning them takes massive effort and "people can use ublock anyway". But yeah that's splitting hairs.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#188

Post by surfpel »

mise_en_place wrote: post #22

My old manager put it best: No politics and religion in the workplace. Seriously, it's as simple as that. We are here to work, not philosophize about politics and current events.

> My old manager put it best: No politics and religion in the workplace.

No politics for you. The corporate strategy, governance, hiring, dealmaking, etc... will all be politically informed. All your work will contribute to the political beliefs of leadership. It's such a strange abstraction to believe that you're somehow separate from that.

Re: Google fires employee who protested Israel tech event, shuts forum

#189

Post by godelski »

wwweston wrote: post #81

Israel is an inherently inequitable and therefore likely terminally conflict-ridden ethnostate. Israel is a reasonable reaction to a long and terrible history of ethnic persecution. What's going on in Gaza is an unacceptable humanitarian tragedy that is a reaction to an unacceptable attack. There are players on both "sides" of this conflict that are driving it because they actually want the conflict, people who never…

> an unacceptable humanitarian tragedy that is a reaction to an unacceptable attack.

I think this is important to reiterate. Because forces us to pay close attention to the details. There are extremely reasonable justifications for both sides because both sides have committed atrocities. This conflict goes a long way back and I'm in no position to claim who started it. But I can recognize that one atrocity does not justify another. I can recognize that justifying or dismissing the committing of an atrocity only further enables the conflict. Whichever side you land on, if you do not take a highly nuanced approach you are only further enabling conflict. For that's a key reason the conflict continues today. War always includes psychological warfare because you have to convince humans to do the inhumane. There is no such thing as a righteous war.

   War isn’t Hell. War is war, and Hell is Hell. And of the two, war is a lot worse.
   There are no innocent bystanders in Hell. War is chock full of them — little kids, cripples, old ladies. In fact, except for some of the brass, almost everybody involved is an innocent bystander.
   - [0]
[0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUeBMwn_eYc
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