Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

cpldcpu.wordpress.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

181–190 of 191 posts

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#181

Post by makerdiety »

mlyle wrote: post #179
makerdiety wrote: post #178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. There's a small set of prepackaged micro- or teeny- computer programming interfaces. Or the plug-and-play if you will. In fact, that small set of convenience products only serves a market of kids that want to play with toys. They're literally toys. Ten or fifty dollar ARM microprocessors or microcontrollers coming in a box with integrated debugging features and integrated WiFi modules. And their complementary t…

I'm going to translate your comment in how it sounds to me: "I've spent a lot on embedded development. In large part, I've done this because I've sought to make things unnecessarily complicated and because I like playing with this stuff. I will deride the typical tools used today by most embedded developers as toys. I will use these views to try and support an assertion that computing isn't effectively 'free' in a mo…

Yeah, you're right. Someone can spend at most five hundred or seven hundred dollars on a complete embedded systems development combination-set which maybe consists of something like one or five or twenty ARM microcontrollers and the convenient hardware application programming interfaces that are compatible with them, the small computers. Micro computers?

Anything else, anything outside this standard specification you've shared with me, is where some hardcore hacking goes on, in my opinion.

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#182

Post by mlyle »

makerdiety wrote: post #181
mlyle wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm going to translate your comment in how it sounds to me: "I've spent a lot on embedded development. In large part, I've done this because I've sought to make things unnecessarily complicated and because I like playing with this stuff. I will deride the typical tools used today by most embedded developers as toys. I will use these views to try and support an assertion that computing isn't effectively 'free' in a mo…

Yeah, you're right. Someone can spend at most five hundred or seven hundred dollars on a complete embedded systems development combination-set which maybe consists of something like one or five or twenty ARM microcontrollers and the convenient hardware application programming interfaces that are compatible with them, the small computers. Micro computers? Anything else, anything outside this standard specification you…

> Yeah, you're right. Someone can spend at most five hundred or seven hundred dollars on a complete embedded systems development combination-set which maybe consists of something like one or five or twenty ARM microcontrollers and the convenient hardware application programming interfaces that are compatible with them, the small computers.

You can literally become equipped to develop for microcontrollers and have a bunch of boards for less than $50 (excluding a laptop).

If you want to go a bit further, you can get a lab supply and a halfway decent DSO with logic analyzer capability for under $500.

> Anything else, anything outside this standard specification you've shared with me, is where some hardcore hacking goes on, in my opinion.

I've done plenty of hardcore hacking, and ... even then, not really. FPGAs? You can get ICE40 boards for I spent so much money on equipping myself to do EE stuff 25 years ago. Now you can do much more than I did back then for peanuts. Heck: I just built 20 little embedded ARM computers for students with LCD, cherry switches, and a debug monitor for $300, and the biggest expense was the blank keycaps. It was trivial to get going. That includes manufacturing. We are spoiled. https://github.com/mlyle/armtrainer

Where things get expensive is doing anything fancy analog, RF, very high speed (which is really also analog ;). Computing itself is cheep cheep cheep.

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#183

Post by makerdiety »

mlyle wrote: post #182
makerdiety wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, you're right. Someone can spend at most five hundred or seven hundred dollars on a complete embedded systems development combination-set which maybe consists of something like one or five or twenty ARM microcontrollers and the convenient hardware application programming interfaces that are compatible with them, the small computers. Micro computers? Anything else, anything outside this standard specification you…

> Yeah, you're right. Someone can spend at most five hundred or seven hundred dollars on a complete embedded systems development combination-set which maybe consists of something like one or five or twenty ARM microcontrollers and the convenient hardware application programming interfaces that are compatible with them, the small computers. You can literally become equipped to develop for microcontrollers and have a b…

Impressive looking development board. It's beautiful even.

But a feature rich integrated development environment would be better. Especially if it, both a hardware accommodating and software accommodating development environment, operates on more than just something like the toy ARM Thumb instruction set and its ARM based microcontrollers.

After all, you don't need an architecture like ARM or even x86 to do some simple things that should be as accessible as alternating current mains electricity or sunlight from the Sun.

Computing is cheap, but only because it's easy to clear the low bar for having a Turing machine. Turing machines even occur naturally. Conway's Game of Life is Turing complete and subsequently you can build a computing machine with it. No ARM or x86 emulation or JTAG-ing necessary. Here, it's unnecessary to even summon a UART to USB adapter.

So, although computing is cheap, it's being locked behind some proprietary bars right now. I'm just looking for the keys to free some computers. Particularly I wanna free very teeny sized computers like microcontrollers.

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#184

Post by mlyle »

makerdiety wrote: post #183
mlyle wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah, you're right. Someone can spend at most five hundred or seven hundred dollars on a complete embedded systems development combination-set which maybe consists of something like one or five or twenty ARM microcontrollers and the convenient hardware application programming interfaces that are compatible with them, the small computers. You can literally become equipped to develop for microcontrollers and have a b…

Impressive looking development board. It's beautiful even. But a feature rich integrated development environment would be better. Especially if it, both a hardware accommodating and software accommodating development environment, operates on more than just something like the toy ARM Thumb instruction set and its ARM based microcontrollers. After all, you don't need an architecture like ARM or even x86 to do some simp…

> operates on more than just something like the toy ARM Thumb instruction set

This is about the most common instruction set in common embedded use in the world. IMO not too toyish.

> Especially if it, both a hardware accommodating and software accommodating development environment,

I'm a bit confused as to your point-- you seem to be simultaneously arguing for "more capabilities" but "smaller computer".

If you're saying "more integrated development" -- and mean specifically self-hosting-- the $1.75 microcontroller running in there is capable of being an 80's era DOS computer with all of those tools, etc, self-hosted. Playing with this is on my todo list for the luls. If you just want open-source development, GNU-arm-embedded is built on eclipse and gcc.

If you're saying smaller computers: STM8, 8051, etc, are easy, too. But there's really not a whole lot of reason to design below the $5 point unless you're mass producing something. The developer's time is worth something, too. Having a big pile of RAM to not even think about putting things on stack, etc, is nice.

If you're saying "free as in freedom" (you were responding to someone making a cost argument with the word "free") -- you can go ICE40 and put any number of open source hardware computing designs on it, and control every bit. Indeed, I had a high school class just build microprocessors from scratch on this approach.

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#185

Post by makerdiety »

mlyle wrote: post #184
makerdiety wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Impressive looking development board. It's beautiful even. But a feature rich integrated development environment would be better. Especially if it, both a hardware accommodating and software accommodating development environment, operates on more than just something like the toy ARM Thumb instruction set and its ARM based microcontrollers. After all, you don't need an architecture like ARM or even x86 to do some simp…

> operates on more than just something like the toy ARM Thumb instruction set This is about the most common instruction set in common embedded use in the world. IMO not too toyish. > Especially if it, both a hardware accommodating and software accommodating development environment, I'm a bit confused as to your point-- you seem to be simultaneously arguing for "more capabilities" but "smaller computer". If you're say…

Yeah. A 1980s era Microsoft DOS computer capability running on a $1.75 microcontroller is exactly what I want, on one hand. I'm not greedy or needy, after all. A microcontroller with WiFi connectivity built in (or easily attached, imported, or included) for building a networked system of these smart little computers and hardware part controllers too. Like, a washing machine that sends a "done washing" message to a headless server sitting in the home.

But I do kinda need them to be expendable. So designs that are priced at less than $5 is kinda a requirement for me. Because I sincerely believe I'm stepping into new and unexplored territory. A lot of experiments will be done with this information technology system. Which means there needs to be a massively productive facility for having a swarm of microcontrollers. Hence, the need for turning any microcontroller encountered in the wild into a controlled and compliant robot brain for my heterogeneity of devices and home appliances.

I don't mind thinking about how to not bust open a stack that can only fit three variables on it or something. In comparison to the simple architecture which includes parsimonious memory modules or only two registers total, for example, what's complex will be the total assembly and combinations of Turing machine based codes made possible by teeny microcontrollers/computers doing simple things. Like receiving temperature levels and then relaying or sending packets of temperature or heat data to a server. Acquiring x86 instruction sets is definitely unnecessary here. Or, rather, I only need x86 code execution for not re-inventing things like WiFi. ARM or x86, for example, then, should be seen as just an imported (think Python) or included (think C) module.

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#186

Post by mlyle »

makerdiety wrote: post #185
mlyle wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> operates on more than just something like the toy ARM Thumb instruction set This is about the most common instruction set in common embedded use in the world. IMO not too toyish. > Especially if it, both a hardware accommodating and software accommodating development environment, I'm a bit confused as to your point-- you seem to be simultaneously arguing for "more capabilities" but "smaller computer". If you're say…

Yeah. A 1980s era Microsoft DOS computer capability running on a $1.75 microcontroller is exactly what I want, on one hand. I'm not greedy or needy, after all. A microcontroller with WiFi connectivity built in (or easily attached, imported, or included) for building a networked system of these smart little computers and hardware part controllers too. Like, a washing machine that sends a "done washing" message to a he…

> Yeah. A 1980s era Microsoft DOS computer capability running on a $1.75 microcontroller is exactly what I want, on one hand. I'm not greedy or needy, after all. A microcontroller with WiFi connectivity built in (or easily attached, imported, or included) for building a networked system of these smart little computers and hardware part controllers too. Like, a washing machine that sends a "done washing" message to a headless server sitting in the home.

OK, that's an ESP8266, then. Here's a module for $2.11.

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256805440432225.html

They're far more capable than you're describing-- capable of emulating an PC-XT at close to 80% speed. For throwaway stuff you could use micropython.

They're cheaper than thinking about how to use random micros you find.

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#187

Post by ddingus »

arantius wrote: post #175
ddingus wrote: post #166

To whomever: I really, really, REALLY, did I say, "Really" miss the twinkle of old school incandescent blinking Christmas lights. Each light has a metal spring that heats as the light glows. Eventually, the spring warms enough to move and break the circuit, thus turning the lamp off. As the spring cools, eventually the circuit is made again, turning the lamp back on, and the cycle continues. And there is more! At fir…

This reminds me a lot of Big Clive's "supercomputer". See any video https://www.google.com/search?q=big+clive+supercomputer reveals. It's just a panel of self-blinking LEDs. But they're cheap and low quality, so they start off all-on, sort of in sync, then after a while they're blinking "randomly". So I think you want an LED string built out of lights like these?

Those look great! But they aren't the same, though I should say those are better than what seems to be out there today.

I left something out of my description above. It is complete regarding the blinking behavior. But, there is a pattern of tree limb shadows on the ceiling! And light colored walls which really makes for the best experience.

Notice how the panels Big Clive showed us have a steady rolling pattern? The incandescent lights are not that way.

Because each one works off an imprecise thermal spring, the blinking can range from a mostly on, going off for a short while, with short while being a couple seconds, to almost the opposite! That would be mostly off, illuminated for a short while.

Because the variation is so broad, the blinking pattern tends to jump around. One might see 5 lights change in close proximity, then half the tree, with parts coming back on in chunks, to another couple regions blinking off then on rapidly before the whole thing seems lit for a brief time.

The big Clive units have all LED's blinking close to the same cycle.

His varies mostly in the phase. What I describe varies mostly in the period. Some bulbs blink fast while others are much slower.

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#188

Post by aftbit »

wlesieutre wrote: post #82
aftbit wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hopefully zero! Still, if you replace your car (or its battery) every 10 years (pretty long IMO) and smoke one vape a day (yikes), you'll use more cells on your car than your vapes.

I hope someone who replaces their car every 10 years isn’t just sending the old one to the compactor when they’re done with it For one, 10 years is a perfectly good used car for somebody, and for two with large EV battery packs we’d expect some lithium recycling effort Disposable vapes don’t have either of those going for them, batteries go straight in the trash after one charge cycle

I would hope that too. I imagine that as long as the pack still works, most cars will be sold forward on the used market. If the pack fails (either due to cell death or a crash or whatever), I bet many of them will not be properly recycled, especially from the early days. Once most cars are EVs, recycling will probably get better.

Either way, it seems pretty unfair to assume that EV packs will be 100% recycled, while vape packs will be 0% recycled. One could imagine a sort of "core charge" for disposable vapes. Bring the vape back for recycling when you get a new one and get $2 off. This could even be done by law like California CRV for cans and bottles.

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#189

Post by NavinF »

makerdiety wrote: post #185
mlyle wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> operates on more than just something like the toy ARM Thumb instruction set This is about the most common instruction set in common embedded use in the world. IMO not too toyish. > Especially if it, both a hardware accommodating and software accommodating development environment, I'm a bit confused as to your point-- you seem to be simultaneously arguing for "more capabilities" but "smaller computer". If you're say…

Yeah. A 1980s era Microsoft DOS computer capability running on a $1.75 microcontroller is exactly what I want, on one hand. I'm not greedy or needy, after all. A microcontroller with WiFi connectivity built in (or easily attached, imported, or included) for building a networked system of these smart little computers and hardware part controllers too. Like, a washing machine that sends a "done washing" message to a he…

> A microcontroller with WiFi connectivity built in

ESP32 modules are $2 on LCSC and come with a built-in wifi antenna

> So designs that are priced at less than $5 is kinda a requirement for me. Because I sincerely believe I'm stepping into new and unexplored territory

No, your requirements are the same ones that every cheap IoT device has. Open up a $5 smart switch and see how they manufactured it for $1

> simple architecture which includes parsimonious memory modules or only two registers total, for example

What are you on about? Using an unusual instruction set will increase NRC, cost per MCU, and power consumption. Low power ISAs are a scam. Race to sleep if you wanna save resources

Re: General purpose MCUs built in to LEDs emulate candle flicker

#190

Post by makerdiety »

mlyle wrote: post #186
makerdiety wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah. A 1980s era Microsoft DOS computer capability running on a $1.75 microcontroller is exactly what I want, on one hand. I'm not greedy or needy, after all. A microcontroller with WiFi connectivity built in (or easily attached, imported, or included) for building a networked system of these smart little computers and hardware part controllers too. Like, a washing machine that sends a "done washing" message to a he…

> Yeah. A 1980s era Microsoft DOS computer capability running on a $1.75 microcontroller is exactly what I want, on one hand. I'm not greedy or needy, after all. A microcontroller with WiFi connectivity built in (or easily attached, imported, or included) for building a networked system of these smart little computers and hardware part controllers too. Like, a washing machine that sends a "done washing" message to a…

So basically we're shopping for fingernail sized motherboards?
Post reply on HN