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Cloudflare lays off new hires

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Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#181
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> having something in my “file” about being I would check your assumption here. What is this "my file" you imagine exists. What is it? Who is the custodian? Is there just one copy, if not, how are they kept in sync, etc.?

It’s in quotes because it’s not a literal file, per se . But HR will keep records of termination reasons. So, if a prospective employer contacts Cloudflare and asks why she was terminated and Cloudflare says “performance” when that’s not actually the case, it’s detrimental to the potential employer’s perception of her.

Never heard that a company tell the reason got dismissed. they will confirm they worked there. saying performance or similar things can cause legal issues. At least in Europe. in some countries even code sentences are not allowed.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#182
post #53

Plenty of these on LI today unfortunately. https://www.linkedin.com/posts/skoroleva_opentowork-techsale... https://twitter.com/BowTiedPassport/status/17451497589921956...

Yikes on that second link, I seriously hope she told them she was recording the call or she may run into some two-party consent issues.

BOOM! Now anyone doing due background checks on her and googling her name will find that post and flag her as a huge liability and a complete no-hire. Brilliant.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> She did cut them off when they were giving out corporate speak. She cut them off after 21 seconds and then went into a heated complaint, including calling what they're doing "bullshit" > She asked for details, and they didn't have any details for her. Once someone becomes this heated, the only real option is to reschedule a followup call after the person has had time to cool down. Nothing good would have come from…

A few things. First, if they are doing layoffs, shouldn't they expect people to be pissed off, and be prepared to handle that? I don't think the call was heated at all, but maybe it's a cultural difference. It could be that American corporate drones in general are less tolerant of conflict. Second, why not include someone she knew on the call, instead of two people she had never met before? It's a total power move. I…

First - Cultural differences are almost certainly at play here if you're not American. My only exposure to non-American workplace culture is a single German friend, and familiarity with how Linus Torvalds operates. Suffice it to say, cutting across someone to say "bullshit" would be considered "heated" in most American tech workplaces, no matter how calm your tone of voice and body language is. I'm struggling to find a way to say this without sparking a discussion I definitely don't want, but this kind of goes hand in hand with all the inclusion and sensitivity training that was very popular in American corporations until very recently. You can't really emphasize the importance of always being kind and inclusive and butterflies and rainbows without creating a culture that's a bit more sensitive about people acting in any way pissed off.

Second - I'm not sure I'd call the choice of call participants a "power move", just standard American hyper-legally-conscious practice. Surprise layoffs or pip firings are usually done with an HRBP you've probably never met before leading the call. Sometimes the manager may be there but frequently they won't talk much or at all.

Third - Not necessarily. The others may have been struggling to close sales as well. The only things I know about this whole thing come from reading the text in the OP and watching the tiktok video so I could easily be missing it, but is there any evidence that this is anything other than letting go of sales people who aren't performing? I think this is extremely common in sales, it's pretty cutthroat. You close deals or you don't, and companies are always asking "what have you done for me lately?"

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#184
post #181
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s in quotes because it’s not a literal file, per se . But HR will keep records of termination reasons. So, if a prospective employer contacts Cloudflare and asks why she was terminated and Cloudflare says “performance” when that’s not actually the case, it’s detrimental to the potential employer’s perception of her.

Never heard that a company tell the reason got dismissed. they will confirm they worked there. saying performance or similar things can cause legal issues. At least in Europe. in some countries even code sentences are not allowed.

Usually companies now ask the question "would this candidate be eligible for rehire in the future". If someone is fired for performance or other cause, the answer is more likely to be "no".

This works around potential libel issues associated with giving specific reasons.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#185
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The harder, riskier, and more expensive you make it to hire new people, the more companies will play it safe by avoiding junior hires and putting more headcount in less restrictive countries. A few jobs ago our mobile dev team was in an EU country with significant protections against firing people. Their interview process involved a take-home problem that would have easily taken 80-100 hours, more with polish. I coul…

That doesn’t really pass the smell test. Countries with employment protections still have probation periods during which the company can fire you without hassle. For example in Germany 6 months is a common duration. https://allaboutberlin.com/guides/probezeit If you cannot evaluate an employee’s worth in 6 months that’s pretty problematic.

After 6 months the employee is then free to do the bare minimum.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#186

I don't understand why Cloudflare can't just be honest and say the reason she got laid off, instead of making up some garbage about her performance. That was her main complaint, and I side with her completely. She was not asking to keep her job, or asking unreasonable questions. If they just explained that it was because the company overhired, or because they needed to reduce costs to keep the company afloat, that wo…

I think it complicates matters with her being in sales. It’s a much more cutthroat area in companies the size of Cloudflare from what I’ve seen. If you don’t perform you get cut loose really fast. I have a family member in tech sales and it blows my mind how easy it is to get fired.

I’ve seen the opposite: since AEs typically have very low base salaries, companies can afford to keep them around longer.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume this is done to dodge WARN Act requirements. I can't think of any other reasons that make any kind of sense. I mean, honestly this doesn't make sense either, it's just all I've got.

Doesn't the WARN act just come down to paying severance that covers at least the notice period? Sometimes I feel like comments here are premised on WARN being a magic spell that prevents arbitrary termination.

Isn’t the WARN act just for larger layoffs (50 or 75+)?

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#188
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Doesn't the WARN act just come down to paying severance that covers at least the notice period? Sometimes I feel like comments here are premised on WARN being a magic spell that prevents arbitrary termination.

Isn’t the WARN act just for larger layoffs (50 or 75+)?

I had assumed this was part of a larger layoff, but I don't know.

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nah I’m pretty comfortable blaming a company for jerking around a new hire, thereby putting their financial status and healthcare needs at risk. That’s shit behavior and deserves to be called out.

[flagged]

The economy objectively only works that way because it’s designed to work that way, designed by people, people that should be held to their unethical behavior. The economy isn’t some mythical law of nature. It’s entirely a man made thing and I have every right to be disappointed in socially-made-up things called “corporations”!

Re: Cloudflare lays off new hires

#190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

The economy objectively only works that way because it’s designed to work that way, designed by people, people that should be held to their unethical behavior. The economy isn’t some mythical law of nature. It’s entirely a man made thing and I have every right to be disappointed in socially-made-up things called “corporations”!

That is quite the tautology indeed! Well if it pleases you, dig in your heels and howl at the moon.
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