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Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

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Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#181

Post by navjack27 »

anon84873628 wrote: post #140
derbOac wrote: post #87

I was at a research colloquium once and this came up in the context of dieting. The author of that research was making similar statements, although the focus of the research was different. The problem I had with what they were describing was that they basically defined away willpower. That is, it felt like they basically said "once you control for all the downstream effects of willpower, willpower no longer has an ef…

Yes, great point. In learning about people with ADHD I learned that it is actually a constellation of possible executive function disorders. There are many different aspects or subtypes of executive function, such as time management, working memory, impulse control, etc. Then you realize that "willpower" isn't a real thing; it's just a vernacular term that ambiguously refers to some aspects of executive function. And…

Thank you for taking the time and learning the ins and outs of ADHD and executive functioning.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#182

Post by andrewstuart »

LordDragonfang wrote: post #173
andrewstuart wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>But how do you make yourself start doing something you don't want to do? Like going to the gym? Well, the same person who advised me on the deferral strategy also advised me on your question. He said - specifically on the topic of going to the gym and exercising - (paraphrased): "Stop looking for techniques and mind tricks, for some things in life you must simply take action. You cannot avoid taking action if you w…

>You know what the action required is, do it >If you do something, it is because you prioritised it higher then everything else. This is exactly the sort of non-actionable advice that the article says doesn't work , though. Saying that you just need to "prioritize" something is the same as saying you just need to focus more willpower - it doesn't work for most people. What it sounds like your friend did is used a min…

I agree with the advice in terms of "how do I do something"?

You have to get off your arse and do it.

That's the actionable advice.

There's no substitute for action.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#183

Post by LoganDark »

andrewstuart wrote: post #54

Someone explained to me that the subconscious mind does not like giving up something that it likes in exchange for nothing. Say for example you want to give up smoking. So don't give up. Instead, just stop that behavior for the present time - then your subconscious is not fighting you. So you want a cigarette? Well sure OK you can have one, but defer that decision to have it for some period of time. Maybe start with…

This reminds me of a story I hear from time to time, about how monks quit bad habits. They practice mindfulness, which is staying aware of the habit every time they feel tempted. They still indulge in it, but they make sure they're always doing it on purpose, fully aware of their actions.

Once they've turned it from a compulsive behavior into an intentional one, they can stop. Their intentional behavior made the compulsive behavior shut up, so once they stop doing it intentionally, they don't feel the compulsion anymore either.

When done properly this is supposed to have a 100% success rate.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#184

Post by braingravy »

augustk wrote: post #180
leereeves wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. It's often presented as a study on willpower, self-control, delayed gratification, etc, but it's also a study about trust. And looking at it that way, it's not surprising that a child who grows up in an environment where strangers are trustworthy will be more successful than a child who doesn't. Perhaps the sad take-away should be that a large majority of us lack the supportive environment required to succ…

Another source of error is that not all children are equally obsessed with candy.

Especially those exposed to different diets.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#185

Post by ijhuygft776 »

dboreham wrote: post #97
peterleiser wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of a friend who's New Year's resolution over 20 years ago was to pick up smoking. He tried a few times but just couldn't manage to start the habit.

I worked for a guy who said he would take up smoking at age 75 because he'd calculated the impact on his remaining life span at that point would be minimal.

I'm not sure I would wait that long if I wanted to smoke... many smokers live their life expectancy anyways

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#186

Post by s1artibartfast »

LordDragonfang wrote: post #173
andrewstuart wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>>But how do you make yourself start doing something you don't want to do? Like going to the gym? Well, the same person who advised me on the deferral strategy also advised me on your question. He said - specifically on the topic of going to the gym and exercising - (paraphrased): "Stop looking for techniques and mind tricks, for some things in life you must simply take action. You cannot avoid taking action if you w…

>You know what the action required is, do it >If you do something, it is because you prioritised it higher then everything else. This is exactly the sort of non-actionable advice that the article says doesn't work , though. Saying that you just need to "prioritize" something is the same as saying you just need to focus more willpower - it doesn't work for most people. What it sounds like your friend did is used a min…

>What it sounds like your friend did is used a mind trick to create a habit so it was a required part of his routine, which made it easier.

Whats the difference between a mind trick, willpower, decision, and dedication?

Deciding that you will do something and not internally debating it IS willpower.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#187

Post by bmicraft »

LoganDark wrote: post #183
andrewstuart wrote: post #54

Someone explained to me that the subconscious mind does not like giving up something that it likes in exchange for nothing. Say for example you want to give up smoking. So don't give up. Instead, just stop that behavior for the present time - then your subconscious is not fighting you. So you want a cigarette? Well sure OK you can have one, but defer that decision to have it for some period of time. Maybe start with…

This reminds me of a story I hear from time to time, about how monks quit bad habits. They practice mindfulness, which is staying aware of the habit every time they feel tempted. They still indulge in it, but they make sure they're always doing it on purpose, fully aware of their actions. Once they've turned it from a compulsive behavior into an intentional one, they can stop. Their intentional behavior made the comp…

> When done properly this is supposed to have a 100% success rate.

Sounds a lot like the No True Scotsman fallacy. I'm sure most smokers trying to quit think about how bad it is every single time, yet they can't.

How would one even know when you've "thought about it hard enough"?

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#188

Post by LoganDark »

bmicraft wrote: post #187
LoganDark wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This reminds me of a story I hear from time to time, about how monks quit bad habits. They practice mindfulness, which is staying aware of the habit every time they feel tempted. They still indulge in it, but they make sure they're always doing it on purpose, fully aware of their actions. Once they've turned it from a compulsive behavior into an intentional one, they can stop. Their intentional behavior made the comp…

> When done properly this is supposed to have a 100% success rate. Sounds a lot like the No True Scotsman fallacy. I'm sure most smokers trying to quit think about how bad it is every single time, yet they can't. How would one even know when you've "thought about it hard enough"?

> I'm sure most smokers trying to quit think about how bad it is every single time, yet they can't.

No, this isn't it. It's trying to take control of the actual act of doing the thing. Being self-aware about its harm doesn't count.

So, you'd have to realize what you're doing before you get out the cigarette. The aim is to do it without relying on the compulsion so that the compulsion will eventually go away.

It's not just thinking about it really hard.

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#189

Post by bmicraft »

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #60
devbent wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People who consider themselves "gym rats" go to the gym because it is what they do. People who are mountain bikers don't ride to keep in shape, they look forward to getting on their bike.

For years, I was "a person who liked to ride my bike 300+ miles in a day". Then one day I realized that was a lie, or at least only a half-truth. Then I realized that most of why I did it was that I liked to keep in shape, and to eat a lot.

Somehow you've made a step in the exact opposite direction of what seems to be encouraged here. Does it still work out for you?

Re: Studies suggest that relying on will power to break habits is hopeless (2019)

#190

Post by bmicraft »

refactor_master wrote: post #70
antwerp1 wrote: post #3

It’s just like decision fatigue: your capacity for it diminishes the more you use it (within a given time range). Instead, carefully curate your identity . This is described well in Atomic Habits. Train yourself to think “I am just not the kind of person who does x.”

> Train yourself to think “I am just not the kind of person who does x.” We are rarely who we really want to be. Yet, here we are. I’ve been trained, literally since infancy, to obey bedtime, but I’m writing this response an hour past my bedtime.

I think there's slight a difference there. Compare these two:

You: I’ve been trained to obey bedtime

Proposed: I'm a person that obeys bedtime

What I'm getting at here is that while you seem to think you _should do_ it, you don't actually think about yourself as someone that does do it. Which makes sense because it's true, but I think the suggestion is to lie to yourself, just a little.

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