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'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

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Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#181

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

Thinking about a conflict between nations or large groups of people in terms of common law is not the right approach. Before going further I do want to say that I do not condone torture, prisoners of war and/or detained civilians should not be subjected to violence after they have surrendered or been captured. That being said, the only way to think about this is in terms of a war. Israel has officially declared war on Hamas which is the ruling body of the Palestinian territories. A war does not end when the soldiers involved in the first battle are killed, it does not have to only be defensive and it does not have to be proportionate. Other nations may attempt to influence the conduct of nations who are at war but the only recourse beyond political and economic pressure is military action. Israel has no obligation to stop the war until they have achieved their goal which is understandably the complete elimination of Hamas and an end to any further attacks on Israel. This is both a reasonable and an achievable goal given the territory involved and its proximity to Israel. They are not fighting a war halfway around the globe for reasons that may hypothetically affect them at some point in the future. They are fighting on the very borders of their country after just the latest and most horrific attack out of a long history of sustained violence against them. So yes I do think your proposition is unreasonable, I know that if my country was in the same situation that they would respond in the same way and I suspect every last country in the world able to defend itself would do the same.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#182

Slightly related, I wonder what opportunity cost the Israeli tech sector will incur from this conflict. Instead of developing their startups, lots of young people are busy with warfare at the moment.

The least of our worries at the moment... but honestly, the Israeli tech sector is highly intertwined with the army, so I doubt this will damage it in the long run.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#183
post #54

Israel has also been imposing apartheid on Palestinians for years, a fact that high-ranking officials themselves admit [1][2], and which human rights reports confirm[3]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/sep/06/israel-imposin... [2] https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/2023-08-13/ty-article/ex... [3] https://www.hrw.org/report/2021/04/27/threshold-crossed/isra...

I disagree on the apartheid claim and so does former anti-apartheid activist and South African politician Mosiuoa Lekota [1].

Per Wikipedia, Apartheid is a "system of institutionalised racial segregation", and Israel's citizens include many Arab Muslims and even Palestinians, all of whom have equal rights. Israel's declaration of independence explicitly supported "equality...without distinction of race, creed, or sex" [2]. Arabs are 20% of the Israeli population and yet they are 40% of doctors [3].

The West bank and Gaza are basically separate countries with their own governments. The extremist Israeli settlers should leave those areas since they are not part of Israel, but I am just stating disagreement with the "apartheid" label. The concept of systemic Apartheid is unrelated to a few bad apples occupying and illegally settling in areas outside their national borders.

[1] https://thesouthafrican.net/2023/09/28/israel-is-not-an-apar...

[2] https://www.jta.org/archive/full-text-of-israels-proclamatio...

[3] https://www.israel21c.org/the-small-israeli-village-where-ev...

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#184
post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems that in Israel there are (very small) quotas for non jewish people to be admitted at university. I've met muslim israeli who have learnt italian to go to study medicine in italy (where there is a notoriously extremely difficult entrance exam) because all of this was easier than going to a local university.

Source in that? Here’s a source countering https://www.timesofisrael.com/number-of-arab-students-in-isr...

> Source in that?

Me, I have personally met people doing it, while being a student myself.

From your link: > In postgraduate programs, the proportion of Arab students rose 60% from 3.9% to 6.3%.

If you have 0 students and then you get one, it increases ∞%, but sometimes looking at the % in the title, which is just a Δ of the actual % doesn't tell the whole story.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#185

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

They sound eerily similar to the reporting done by Wikileaks over what the Americans did over in Iraq and Afghanistan.

1: Define all males killed or captured as combatants and thus valid military target.

2: Either redefine torture or outsource it.

3: Define every military operation as critical to counter terrorism and part of self defense.

The media response back then was that this is just normal part of the horrors of war, and that this kind of reporting "don't tell us much that we didn't already know in broad outline".

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#186

Those are the most serious allegations: "The men and teenage boys were taken to a warehouse where they sat on a bare floor covered in scattered grains of rice. There they were beaten, interrogated and verbally abused. There was no sleep, and the grains of rice cut their skin as they sat there, undressed." A man claims: "Some people didn’t return from the torture sessions. We would hear their screams and then nothing.…

Nations at war defend themselves by degrading the military might and desire to wage war of the enemy state. I find Israel's actions to be overly callous towards civilian death, but it's important to keep in mind that civilian death was inevitable once the government of Gaza decided to invade Israel and intentionally target civilians.

With that same logic you can justify the civilian deaths of almost any conflict. Every war crime will be justified. Japanese internment? Justified. Hiroshima? Justified. Agent Orange in Vietnam? Justified. Genocide of 2million Filipinos by the US Army? Justified.... It's exhausting just thinking about these atrocities so I'll take a break

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#187

Im glad to see the community engage with this -- there couldnt be a more significant current event happening right now and its jarring that it would be so silent. Edit: And why is it relevant here? At a minimum coworkers are suffering silently through it. The emotional damage just for internet bystanders is staggering.

In my experience, the "benefit of the doubt" has been lost in relation to this subject. I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. It's tragic and a tragic subject, although I dispute the "there couldn't be a more significant current event" - lots of events are equally (or more) significant and relevant. I hope to be proven wrong, but I have doubts.

> I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil.

I bet almost no one in this thread is able to juggle three balls either, even though learning how to do so doesn't take all that much practice. But it does take some practice.

Should we be surprised when people are unable to do something that requires practice and education, when they lack both?

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#188
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, the "benefit of the doubt" has been lost in relation to this subject. I no longer believe it is possible to have any thread about this remain civil. It's tragic and a tragic subject, although I dispute the "there couldn't be a more significant current event" - lots of events are equally (or more) significant and relevant. I hope to be proven wrong, but I have doubts.

[flagged]

Russia v Ukraine and Israel v Gaza are incomparable, except that they're both wars. A comparable war would be other counter-terrorist warzones like Mosul or Raqqa which in fact have much higher civilian death rate than Gaza.

And that's even taking the UNWRA/ Gaza Health numbers at face value, which somehow indicate zero combatants killed in airstrikes.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#189
post #136

[flagged]

That’s interesting. I think it’s rich that Israel is a “victim” despite having nuclear arms and one of the most advanced militaries in the world, but there’s somehow still a need to torture villagers-turned-refugees en masse. Let alone the fact that antizionism is not antisemitism.

Re: 'Like we were lesser humans': Gaza boys, men recall Israeli arrest, torture

#190

Meanwhile, Egypt seems to get a free pass, minimal criticism for keeping its border locked down while being adjacent to a terrible conflict? They could at least let the most vulnerable/sick/injured flee.

All neighboring countries have a fair share of experiences with palestinian groups starting civil wars/trying to overthrow their governments. Even if it was not for keeping the conflict with Israel alive (which is a perfect tool for them to distract from their own problems), they would not want them in.
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