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23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

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Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#181

Post by palencharizard »

CaptainZapp wrote: post #109
RyanShook wrote: post #51

To: arbitrationoptout@23andme.com Subject: Request to Opt-Out of Updated TOS 23andMe Team, I am contacting you regarding the recent changes to the 23andMe Terms of Service, dated November 30, 2023. My name is [your name as registered with 23andMe], and the email associated with my 23andMe account is [your 23andMe account email]. I hereby formally request to opt out of the newly updated Terms of Service. I do not cons…

Send it by certified mail. Or fax it. Or even send it via Telex Any mode of transmission where you can prove you sent it but don't send it just by email.

But you can prove you sent it by email.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#182

Post by vintermann »

consumer451 wrote: post #2

My mother innocently used this service, and filled out the form identifying all relatives by name. The results she received were entirely unenlightening, 50% of my DNA is now in their sketchy database, and I have no way to opt-out of anything. I truly despise this organization.

The worst is the classic social media tactic of using user-submitted data to attract others.

Imagine there came a responsible DNA service tomorrow, which used differential cryptography or something, so that you could share DNA and look for relatives with some semblance of privacy.

They wouldn't get off the ground, because your relatives? They're on this service, or Ancestry or MyHeritage or FamilyTreeDNA, which are every inch as sleazy, US or Israeli megacorporations which you can trust as far as you can throw them (which isn't an inch).

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#183

Post by eesmith »

jacquesm wrote: post #173
eesmith wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There will be several Nobel Prizes in creating the technology to get this bioweapon. You need something which reproduces itself even in non-targets, which enters the cell's nucleus, which detects the correct DNA - which may be scattered across the genome! -, which has a mechanism that kills the target people, and where none of this will mutate so as to stop effectiveness, change/broaden the target population, etc. Fu…

> How would you target "Christians" or "Americans" or "Hispanics"? You don't have to be able to target any group to be able to target some groups. Blacks, Jews and Uighurs might be sufficient. And those definitely have genetic markers.

"Blacks" is a term with very little basis in genetics. What do you think the bioweapon will target?

"Jews" is less diverse, but it's not like there's a single "I am Jewish" marker. Just look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_studies_on_Jews to see how difficult is it, with overlaps to other populations, and the need to correlate multiple haplogroups. How do you put all that detection machinery into a bioweapon?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghurs suggest there are similar issues with Uyghurs - what will the bioweapon target if "the average genetic ancestry of Uyghurs is 63.7% East Asian-related and 36.3% European-related"?

And how do you prevent the bioweapon from mutating that specificity away?

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#184

Post by impish9208 »

sofixa wrote: post #178
throwaway2037 wrote: post #115

Can someone please confirm: Is forced binding arbitrage allowed in EU/EEA/EFTA? If no, what happens if you are a customer from France or Germany? It seems like this contract is totally unenforceable! A bit deeper, I really wish it was illegal to create intentionally unenforceable contracts. Too many companies create these incredibly scary contracts that no mortal human can understand, let alone know if unenforceable.

> what happens if you are a customer from France There are no French customers of 23andme because non-court ordered DNA tests are illegal here.

According to Wikipedia [0], this is to preserve the “peace of families”. Quite bizarre.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA_paternity_testing?wprov=sf...

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#185

Post by eesmith »

Filligree wrote: post #165
eesmith wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're missing the point. Assuming you have a communicable bioweapon which is somehow able to target based on genetics, and assuming the rest of the world isn't able to defend against it, that still leaves the very tricky question of finding a genetic basis which characterizes any of those three categories in a way which is sufficiently effective. Do you really believe there is way to identify "Christians" ba…

I don’t think you really need to solve those problems to cause trouble. You just need to think you have.

Just because you think you can create a bioweapon doesn't mean it causes trouble.

And as I wrote, this sort of bioweapon won't be possible until we've effectively cured cancer, and likely also developed methods which can easily identify and stop it.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#186

Post by ajsnigrutin »

timthelion wrote: post #143
timthelion wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having grown up in the US, my absolute favorite law in Czechia is the one that says the advertised price has to equal the price on the bill. In the US, you get a $20 cell phone plan and the bill is for $60 after fees. In Czechia the price is always exactly as advertised.

Another great on is that text size has legal meaning here. The larger/darker the text the greater the legal weight. So if the contract says two contradictory things, the larger text wins out...

Is that actually the law? Can I get a link to that? In slovenia we have a "suggest-to-government" website, and i'll put the working example there and hopefully at least gain some traction somewhere

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#187

Post by heliodor »

tropdrop wrote: post #65
guiambros wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where did you get the arbitrationoptout@23andme from? The email I get says to "please notify us", and the link is a mail-to legal@23andme.com. That's the email I used yesterday to say I do not agree with the new terms.

The article points out that the mass-sent email used a different email address than that of the ToS. arbitrationoptout@23andme is the email in the ToS. Jury is out whether this hyperlink mix-up was intentional...

There are two processes at play:

- refuse the updated terms of service

- refuse the arbitration

The previous version of the TOS had arbitration too, so I'm not sure what all the stink is about.

Both versions tell you that you have 30 days to opt out of arbitration by emailing arbitrationoptout@...

As usual, the journalists failed at the job and are spreading misinformation.

Current version: https://www.23andme.com/legal/terms-of-service/full-version/

Previous version linked at the bottom: https://www.23andme.com/legal/terms-of-service/full-version/...

Go to both and search for arbitrationoptout@ and you'll see they both have the 30-day opt-out.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#188

Post by jvanderbot »

Just to share a positive from 23andMe, given all the bad press around here.

I got on this service a couple years ago. I am adopted and had spent a long time trying to track down one side of my biological family. I had very little to go on other than a first name and general whereabouts 40+ years ago.

As it became more popular, I had half siblings and, eventually, my biological father reach out to connect.

Its been great knowing I have that connection finally. We're planning to meet soon.

This is a huge benefit of this kind of "opt in" service, but I recognize how devastating it might be if someone was concealing my existence for, say, religious reasons and a data leak or loose privacy settings from a common relative revealed something.

It's a nuanced issue, but my experience has been immensely positive in that it gave me something I may never have had.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#189

Post by SkyPuncher »

mindvirus wrote: post #6

"If you have not notified us... you will be deemed to have agreed..." Is changing the terms of a service agreement with no confirmation/acceptance from the user even legal or enforceable?

For the vast majority of the public, they won’t care beyond that line. They might be upset, but they’ll move on.

Re: 23andMe updates their TOS to force binding arbitration

#190

Post by sensanaty »

Intermernet wrote: post #125
throwaway2037 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Australia also has very strong consumer protection laws. I'm not an Aussie, but many come here and tell us about it. It doesn't seem to scare companies away from doing B2C business in Australia.

As an Aussie, I can say that our consumer protection laws are awesome. Some multinational / international companies have been bitten by them, but only because they didn't do their due diligence before launching in Australia. They're really an example of laws designed to protect people. I've universally found that people who complain about them either don't understand them, or they're trying to take advantage of peopl…

IIRC, Steam famously had to implement their refund system after the Aus government threatened legal action against them. They ended up making the refund system global rather than Aus-specific, so cheers for that one mates!
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