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Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

timeuse.barcelona

181–190 of 264 posts

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree. National borders is quite possibly one of the worst ways to do time zones. At least in the US time zone borders were specifically chosen to run through areas of low population, so you would minimize the number of people doing, say, living in France but working in Geneva one hour ahead. Also it's kind of odd that Ireland and Portugal are in their own little time zone, when it probably makes more sense to just…

Ireland and Portugal already are together in this time zone, but the UK is with them, which makes good friday sense. Map of Timezones: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/World_Ti...

Poor Yukon, skipping 2 time zones

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#182

We (Europe) shouldn't fragment time zones that much. We (NL) should stay on permanent summer time. Reasons - criminality is lower when there's longer light - earlier darkness leads to more accidents. It's better to have longer darkness after the masses are RESTED (in the morning), opposed to when they're TIRED (in the evening) - longer day-time for office workers, is more productive - shorter time of year that has lo…

Summer time makes plenty of sense as-is, especially at fairly extreme latitudes like the Netherlands. Pithily stated, it is about keeping the wall-clock time (meaning the clock everyone looks at, the Schelling point in a society-wide coördination game) approximately aligned with sunrise/dawn. That way you always have sunlight in the morning, but the sun never rises too early making you lose sunlight in the evening. >…

Morning darkness is unavoidable during winter unless you start working at 10 or so.

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#183

We (Europe) shouldn't fragment time zones that much. We (NL) should stay on permanent summer time. Reasons - criminality is lower when there's longer light - earlier darkness leads to more accidents. It's better to have longer darkness after the masses are RESTED (in the morning), opposed to when they're TIRED (in the evening) - longer day-time for office workers, is more productive - shorter time of year that has lo…

"permanent summer time" yes, and have you checked how does that look like in winter, right? It would mean a sunrise at 9h30 (given today's sunset/sunrise times)

Winter and latitude, not longitude should of course guide the selection. Dublin today, Nov 30th, marks the start of the 6 week period where daylight is less than 8 hours, IMHO only wintertime (UTC) makes sense here. Oddly IST, Irish Standard Time and legal time, is UTC+0100. Sticking with IST all year round means 10:00 sunrise in late December for the north-western most parts of the country (Belmullet, for example).

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#185
post #180
post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly I would prefer to go even further - UTC for the entire planet, no offsets. Unfortunately I know most people won't go for that...

Why not go just one step further and adopt Swatch Internet Time? I mean if we’re just going to go the mass upheaval route, we might as well ride that train as far as it will go.

I'd rather go all the way, decimal time and dates. Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#186
I have a modest proposal to end all time-zones forever: the fractalizing time grid.

Currently, partly due to a historical legacy of railroads, time-zones are longitudinal. That is, they help standardize time (and daylight hours) across east-west distances.

However, given that the number of daylight hours is even more starkly affected by north-south latitudinal differences, we should also implement time-zones in that direction. After all, what does "12:15am" really mean if its dark in London and sunny in Reykjavik?

So, in order to standardize daylight hours, we could implement north-south time-zones as well, producing time-offsets for each lat/long cell on the globe. We could standardize the number of daylight hours in a given 24-hour period (using the equator as reference) and standardize each cell to have the same number of daylight hours.

In order to do so, we would simply have to redefine what a "second" is (or really, all time measurements.) So, the further north you go during the summer, the shorter a "second" becomes (so as to preserve the same number of "seconds" per time-cell) whereas in the winter you would have the opposite effect. Therefore this also has the interesting consequence of changing the duration of all time measurements seasonally, with a greater delta the further away from the equator you are (a "second" would always have the same duration at the equator.) So the further away you are from the equator, the quicker the duration of time changes with respect to equatorial time as time passes seasonally. Still with me?

Good, because we can do even better! Why even have time cells? Time-zones were implemented as lines on a map because that was the technology that was available at the time. But now that we have the internet, we can instead standardize an algorithm that could be implemented into all RTC chips and run on reference servers a la atomic clocks. So instead of "crossing over" into the next time cell, all of your time measurements would be sped-up or slowed-down proportionally to your GPS-measured latitude (standardized to some number of significant digits.)

So all analog clocks would immediately be rendered useless -- unless you are exactly on the equator -- and we would live in a world where you could speed up time by running north, but only in the summer.

If you've made it this far without throwing your laptop/phone out of the nearest window in rage, thank you for your patience (and welcome to the time grid!)

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#187

Serious question, why not adopt one timezone globally? For some of us sunrise would happen at 10pm, for others on 4pm. So what? Wouldn't we just get used to it? Is there any rationale for anchoring start of the day between 4am-8am?

https://qntm.org/abolish

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#188
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We (NL) should stay on permanent summer time. > Reasons > ... Why not just have time as close to solar as possible and move working hours as needed? I have always found arguments for permanent summer time very confusing. Just move working hours as needed, why do you need to deviate the entire clock from the solar time for that?

Because we no longer live in a pre-industrial society where people start work with the sunrise and go to bed at sunset, because the only available artificial light is candles. For the vast majority of people, noon is not the middle of the day.

So what does "noon" even mean? Why is it significant?

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#189
post #175
post #168

All attempts to optimize society by changing time zones and adjusting for daylight savings time time should be abandoned. Let society set the schedule after a static time. With this I mean ordinary time zones and the same time throughout the year. Which approximately should correspond with the sun at its highest at noon. If someone prefers brighter mornings and darker afternoons, and someone else the opposite, the so…

Honestly I would prefer to go even further - UTC for the entire planet, no offsets. Unfortunately I know most people won't go for that...

I don't see how that solves the problem.

When you travel (or call) somewhere new, instead of consulting a timezone map to set your watch or know if it's safe to call someone, you'll consult a guide to local "time equivalents" and set your expectations based on that. "Let's see, it's 08:00UTC now and my time guide says locals at that location usually each lunch around 17:00UTC, so if I call Bob there now, it's the middle of the night for him"

Re: Proposal on implementing permanent time zones in the European Union

#190
post #175
post #168

All attempts to optimize society by changing time zones and adjusting for daylight savings time time should be abandoned. Let society set the schedule after a static time. With this I mean ordinary time zones and the same time throughout the year. Which approximately should correspond with the sun at its highest at noon. If someone prefers brighter mornings and darker afternoons, and someone else the opposite, the so…

Honestly I would prefer to go even further - UTC for the entire planet, no offsets. Unfortunately I know most people won't go for that...

> Honestly I would prefer to go even further - UTC for the entire planet, no offsets.

The use of "tomorrow" and "yesterday" will be confusing in parts of the world where at 24/00 o'clock it isn't night. Convincing people will be difficult.

But for just the the EU it would work nicely.

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