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How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

economist.com

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Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes I’ve seen the same in the last several years and hence why I stopped reading them

they're also very britain can tell the US how to run the US better than the US can, since time began, and it's kind of boring.

they also pro anglo saxon style meat and potatoe eating. thats why the beef about turmeric.

Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#182

It's not just India or Bangladesh. Lots of brands sold in the US are tainted with lead: https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2016/08/six-brands-of-turmeri... There are tests you can do at home, like leaving the powder in water and seeing if it leaves a yellow streak separate to the powder.

Do you have a link to a detailed explanation of how to perform that test? Do I just put the powder in water? What will it look like if it does or does not have lead?

How does it work?

Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#183

It's not just India or Bangladesh. Lots of brands sold in the US are tainted with lead: https://www.foodsafetynews.com/2016/08/six-brands-of-turmeri... There are tests you can do at home, like leaving the powder in water and seeing if it leaves a yellow streak separate to the powder.

Do you have a link to a detailed explanation of how to perform that test? Do I just put the powder in water? What will it look like if it does or does not have lead? How does it work?

https://eatrightindia.gov.in/dart/ Is the website by the government of India that shows relatively easy ways to test for a variety of common adulterants

Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#184

Another test you can do is, here: https://youtu.be/PwbOV_Q5u6c?si=EgyrXUpuqlpJsMoy I imagine that some pesticides are also a concern, tho perhaps less acutely poisonous, of no less serious concern for good health to be avoided.

They have a whole website of these tests for different adulterations.

Where is it?

Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#185

> Yet adulterated turmeric looks like a major culprit almost everywhere, chiefly owing to poor practice in India, which produces 75% of the spice. It’s really shocking to me that in the year 2023 people could be intentionally adding lead to food products at this scale. Is this mainly due to greed and corruption? Ignorance? Distrust of modern medicine and health advice? I suppose it’s similar to the problem of people…

> Is this mainly due to greed and corruption? Greed, since consumers are fooled into believing they're buying a fresher, more yellow product. The Indian government has a webpage dedicated to detecting adulteration in various kinds of food, including turmeric[1]. [1] https://eatrightindia.gov.in/dart/

Some of those additives are _wild_

Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...a bottle of phenylphthalein went missing" Uh? What was the big deal? We had bottles of phenylphthalein in the school lab and no one cared a damn about it or whether any went missing because it was so commonly available and so cheap. And most of us had phenylphthalein at home in our medicine chests in name of Ford Pills. When TV ads told us to take it to 'keep fit and regular' it was just something one was used to…

>What was the big deal? I wasn't party to the decision making. But imagine the staff were a bit twitchy about what a malicious teenager could do with a whole bottle of the stuff. And what else they might do if they got away stealing the phenylphthalein.

When in the 70s?

I ask as there was a sudden shift in perception about the dangers of chemicals by the public sometime in the 1970s when worries were heightened (at least so in Australia where I was at the time but I think it occurred in many places). Perhaps it was this heightened concern that was responsible for the unnecessary worry over the stolen phenolphthalein.

What I've observed since my schooling in the 1960s is that worry about chemicals has definitely increased amongst the GP but unfortunately it has never been matched by a better understanding of chemistry. We often see this manifest in say overblown responses to incidents such as a spill of a relatively innocuous chemical, here both fear and perceived threat are not in keeping with actual reality. When all threats appear similar there's always the risk of not responding adequately to a situation that is actually very dangerous.

I'm glad my schooling was just before this change in thinking occurred because I had the chance to come in contact with materials that most school kids never see these days such as mercury, benzene, metallic potassium, sodium, lithium, white phosphorus, various —CN compounds, and we not only learned the equation for the black powder reaction but also we had to make the stuff and those who couldn't get it to explode failed the prac experiment. Also we had radioactive sources including metallic uranium of which discs were handed around the class to demonstrate its high density.

By today's standards that sounds like a dangerous free-for-all but it definitely was not. We were carefully and thoroughly instructed in the handling of chemicals including safety, storage, toxicity and having to recognize that certain types of chemicals were likely to be more toxic than others (even if we'd never encountered them previously then we should be especially wary of them due to the inherent characteristics of such compounds). Also much attention was paid to purity and why source was important (for instance, was the chemical lab or pharmaceutical grade).

On that last point we did an experiment where we even tasted certain reagents which I've not time to recount in detail here but it was the most important safety lesson about chemicals I was ever taught. Unfortunately, such is the fear of chemicals now that these days such experiments can never be done by school kids.

How is all this relevant to this story? It's simple really, even though I'd never learned about the toxic nature of lead chromate at school the training I had then would have made me acutely aware of its potential dangers even if I didn't know them specifically. Just the mention of lead chromate and food in the same sentence would have waved red flags even when I was a school kid! That it doesn't among some people nowadays is a real worry.

When it comes to toxicity some safety rules are dead simple—an organic compound containing a heavy metal is almost always toxic (and often very toxic). For instance, even if one had never come across them previously one could be almost certain that, say, lead acetate and methyl mercury would be toxic and you'd never want to encounter even small amounts in food. Also, much emphasis was placed on good lab practice and treating all chemicals as potentially dangerous especially those that were unknown or unlabeled.

I get really annoyed at stories like this turmeric-lead chromate one because whilst the world has become more aware of unwanted chemicals in our food and in the environment—which is a good thing—but, as mentioned, there hasn't been a corresponding improvement in understanding of the underlying chemistry by many of the public. This ignorance manifests as an overly strong fear of chemicals or just plain ignorance as in this turmeric story—or both. That all too many people are now frightened at the mere mention of the word 'chemical' is not helpful, it's very counterproductive and potentially dangerous.

That stories like this can still emerge in the 21st Century is worrying (same with your story about worries over stolen phenolphthalein) through the lack of basic chemistry knowledge is very disconcerting.

It seems to me that our approach to teaching chemistry to the GP is wrong in that we've been teaching it from the perspective that those taught will become chemists whereas it ought to be taught to provide a better general understanding of why the use of chemicals is essential in the modern world and that knowing how to both handle them safely and use them properly is of paramount importance.

An incident that happened to me some years back clearly illustrates what can happen when the heightened fear of chemicals amongst the GP combines with a profound lack of knowledge. During a meeting that I did not arrange and which I was not a central player about the banning of PVC wiring in houses an environmentalist said to me that "we [environments] will eventually get Element 17 banned altogether from everything."

Whenever I recount this odd encounter I substitute element's common/scientific name to Element 17 to highlight the sheer absurdity of such a notion, especially this element. Unfortunately, amongst some people zealotry and ignorance have combined to produce such utterances, but the trouble is that whilst this was an extreme case it nevertheless doesn't go unnoticed and ends up having a negative impact on the general discourse.

I was taught that chemistry is essential for the modern world to the function and not to be frightened of chemicals but rather to be mightily respectful of them and that to handle them properly requires some basic knowledge about chemistry.

We ought to be worried when more than a tiny minority can somehow deny the world—even food—is made of elements and chemicals and that all human-made chemicals are 'unnatural'. It's a sure indication that something isn't fully right with our education systems.

Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ”Rather a large number of things are contaminated with heavy metals” Sure, but usually it’s because products are grown in contaminated soil and “naturally” pick up traces from their environment. Pretty much all rice contains arsenic, for example, but the concentration varies significantly depending on where it’s grown and how it’s processed. The turmeric problem is different because lead has been deliberately added…

Except that pretty much no plants bioaccumulate lead. The biggest lead vector for plant-based food is the soil that hitches a ride on the outside. So peeling potatoes, carrots, beets etc and washing your other fruits and veggies is really all that is needed. It's actually a little unfortunate that no plants we know of will take up lead because this would be a way to clean up soil. Plant a lot of plant X. Pull out the…

Some kinds of mushrooms take up lead And other toxic materials.

I only found this out because edible mushrooms grew in my yard, but they are warned in literature that they may contain heavy metals, as my well water contains 3ppb lead I wasn’t confident to eat them.

I also found this article for you, https://www.yesmagazine.org/environment/2019/03/05/mushrooms...

I grow my own turmeric and ginger with reverse osmosis filtered water indoors, perfectly lead free, and it tastes amazing when it’s fresh

Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#188
post #174
post #153

The lead chromate isn't particularly dangerous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_chromate >Despite containing both lead and hexavalent chromium, lead chromate is not particularly toxic because of its very low solubility. The LD50 for rats is only 5,000 mg/kg. Lead chromate is treated with great care in its manufacture, the main concerns being dust of the chromate precursor. "Extensive epidemiological investigat…

Well, the reference to its (purported) carcinogenity was edited away twelve days ago: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:MobileDiff/118137387...

I looked at the source and it's OSHA. You'd do a blood test for lead, but it was due to it being inhaled and causing lung cancer. https://www.osha.gov/laws-regs/federalregister/2006-02-28-0

Ingestion wasn't mentioned, it's main danger is spray paint.

Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>What was the big deal? I wasn't party to the decision making. But imagine the staff were a bit twitchy about what a malicious teenager could do with a whole bottle of the stuff. And what else they might do if they got away stealing the phenylphthalein.

When in the 70s? I ask as there was a sudden shift in perception about the dangers of chemicals by the public sometime in the 1970s when worries were heightened (at least so in Australia where I was at the time but I think it occurred in many places). Perhaps it was this heightened concern that was responsible for the unnecessary worry over the stolen phenolphthalein. What I've observed since my schooling in the 1960…

>When in the 70s?

Lates 70s. Maybe 78 or 79.

The school wasn't overly obsessive about safety. They still us to regularly throw sodium into water to show what happened and that sort of thing. However it was a military school and the discipline was fierce. So perhaps they were more concerned about the theft than what was actually stolen.

I also despair about the public's general lack of education on scientific topics, to the point now where the word 'chemicals' is a synonym for unnatural or bad. Everything is made of chemicals and it always has been!

Re: How to stop adulterated turmeric from killing people

#190
post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The British Empire might have disappeared but a segment of the English elite continue to believe that the former colonies must be run based on ideas that emerge from their superior intellect. Everyone and their dog knows that lead is dangerous. You don't need to have a "superior intellect" to realize this. > Most governments in Africa, Asia and South America must have first hand experience with why (and how) NGOs a…

Except this molecule isn't dangerous. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead(II)_chromate >Despite containing both lead and hexavalent chromium, lead chromate is not particularly toxic because of its very low solubility. The LD50 for rats is only 5,000 mg/kg. Lead chromate is treated with great care in its manufacture, the main concerns being dust of the chromate precursor. "Extensive epidemiological investigations have…

To quote just a few sentences afterwards:

> One of the greatest threats comes from inhalation of particles, so much effort has been devoted to production of low-dust forms of the pigment.

With lead, there is no safety assumption that one can make. Zero. You never know if someone will expose the paint to acid, basic or otherwise corrosive solutions, if a child ingests it, or what happens with it in the human body.

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