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Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

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Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#181

Post by katbyte »

baby wrote: post #92
serf wrote: post #74

This is a money grab with the polish of a pro-gamer cheat-cleanup. Why do I say that? Microsoft can fix most of the 'cheats' that a software controller can implement in software. Auto-fire is trivial to detect, as is a KBM setup where it doesn't belong. Out of the ordinary joystick characteristics/speed/hysteresis/range would make it obvious to them which controllers are aftermarket if they cared to disallow them aft…

So should they just give up on cheating devices?

Should have done this at the start of this generation before people invested in hardware which is now e waste

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#182

Post by jasonjayr »

jsiepkes wrote: post #98
serf wrote: post #74

This is a money grab with the polish of a pro-gamer cheat-cleanup. Why do I say that? Microsoft can fix most of the 'cheats' that a software controller can implement in software. Auto-fire is trivial to detect, as is a KBM setup where it doesn't belong. Out of the ordinary joystick characteristics/speed/hysteresis/range would make it obvious to them which controllers are aftermarket if they cared to disallow them aft…

"Auto-fire is trivial to detect, as is a KBM setup where it doesn't belong" [..] "if they cared to disallow them after only a few minutes of profiling the player." Definitely not trivial and a gross over simplification. It will create a whole bunch of grey area's and endless tweaking. Which in turn will lead to people getting unfairly banned. Meaning Microsoft will then need to investigate these cases to unban them.

Maybe don't ban them? Maybe mark them and force the player to explain the situation to their peers?

Bans revoke products paid for, but marking suspects forces them to explain to their peers the situation and lets them make the decision.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#183

Post by onli »

lawn wrote: post #106
izacus wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many of Windows games block Steam Deck linux distro to "preserve experience" and "prevent cheating".

Afaik this isn't true. What some games have is a particularly invasive anti-cheat that's not supported on Proton. But it's not targeting Steam Deck in particular, it's just a side-effect.

Some games do or did specifically block proton. Roblox was one example.

But it is some, not many, a usually widely critized exception. Linux and the steam deck specifically are not regularly specifaclly blocked - why would they do that? It just would limit their customer base and annoy actual customers. Tu put actual effort into earning less money would be crazy.

The games that do not work either still use incompatible cheat detection, like you said, so we are talking only some multiplayer games. And the incompatible rest is just a technical accident that Proton will probably fix with time.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#184

Post by fishtacos »

solardev wrote: post #167
mathieuh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is a lot of games give controllers aim-assist, and using one of these devices means the game still sees your input device as a controller so you get that aim-assist but you also get the benefits of using a mouse.

That seems fine? Some games do offer it for mouse too and I always turn them off. It's not really a limiting factor for most mouse users. Just let be an option that any one can toggle on or off. Maybe have two different leagues. I'm not some hardcore shooter pro gamer either, just some dude with a $20 mouse and mouse pad full of cat hair. Aiming is not an issue at all and auto aim is just a hindrance.

Auto aim with a mouse is indeed a hindrance, yet auto aim with a controller is something necessary in many cases, especially as one gets older or brain gets cat hair in it.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#185

Post by paulryanrogers »

endisneigh wrote: post #156
squigz wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good point. I forgot Microsoft doesn't have any stake in that market and would never do anything to infringe PC user freedom.

You can play games on Linux.

Some games. Sometimes. Depending on the game, Linux distro, library versions, hardware driver support, etc.

I can also bake my own bread. But I'm tired of all the tweaking and debugging at the end of the day.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#186

Post by fishtacos »

RobotToaster wrote: post #86
serf wrote: post #74

This is a money grab with the polish of a pro-gamer cheat-cleanup. Why do I say that? Microsoft can fix most of the 'cheats' that a software controller can implement in software. Auto-fire is trivial to detect, as is a KBM setup where it doesn't belong. Out of the ordinary joystick characteristics/speed/hysteresis/range would make it obvious to them which controllers are aftermarket if they cared to disallow them aft…

And someone in China will no doubt find a way to make their controllers be detected as official, if they haven't already.

No one in China was able to make a 360 controller bypass Microsoft's digital signature driver controls for their dongle for 18 years now. I think we're past the point of "someone will just hack it". Not going to hack it.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#187

Post by cheeseomlit »

solardev wrote: post #167
mathieuh wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Problem is a lot of games give controllers aim-assist, and using one of these devices means the game still sees your input device as a controller so you get that aim-assist but you also get the benefits of using a mouse.

That seems fine? Some games do offer it for mouse too and I always turn them off. It's not really a limiting factor for most mouse users. Just let be an option that any one can toggle on or off. Maybe have two different leagues. I'm not some hardcore shooter pro gamer either, just some dude with a $20 mouse and mouse pad full of cat hair. Aiming is not an issue at all and auto aim is just a hindrance.

It's a significant balance issue, auto-aim in a lot of modern shooters is so strong it's basically an aim hack. Even on controllers the game practically plays itself, but combine that with the precision (and more importantly turn speed) of mouse aiming and its straight up broken

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#189

Post by pandaman »

serf wrote: post #74

This is a money grab with the polish of a pro-gamer cheat-cleanup. Why do I say that? Microsoft can fix most of the 'cheats' that a software controller can implement in software. Auto-fire is trivial to detect, as is a KBM setup where it doesn't belong. Out of the ordinary joystick characteristics/speed/hysteresis/range would make it obvious to them which controllers are aftermarket if they cared to disallow them aft…

First of all, it's definitely a "money grab". I am very surprised they allowed unlicensed controllers in the first place: other consoles used to make more from licensing accessories than from licensing software. I'd imagine they allowed it to sacrifice some profit to attract more customers with cheaper accessories and now they feel that they have enough customers already, very strange move at this point.

However, the detection methods you described are very bad engineering. Any statistical method will have two types of errors: false positives and false negatives and you cannot eliminate either. Inevitable false positives will do much more damage to the consumer perception of the platform than any removal of third party controllers could possibly do.

Re: Xbox will block third-party controllers to "preserve the console experience"

#190

Post by shkkmo »

COGlory wrote: post #174
shkkmo wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is "trivially verifiable" then you should be able to provide examples. Some anti cheat tools, such as "Easy Anti Cheat" are supported on Steam Deck, some are not supported yet. Perhaps some will never be supported. AFAIK these later categories are generally due to anti cheat hooking into low level windows functionality that Proton doesn't support. You could argue this is "blocking open software" but that would…

There are games that will ban your account if they detect Proton. Destiny 2 comes to mind.

I would grant that as an example of blocking open software, but since Destiny 2 can be run on windows on a steam deck, it doesn't seem to be an example of blocking open hardware (not that steam deck hardware is actually 'open'.)
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