Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021) • Hacker News Board

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#181

Post by markhahn » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 3:13 PM UTC

hotpotamus wrote: post #76

jhbadger wrote: post #68

Something that goes without comment by the uncritical author is Illich's vile comment that medical science and its quest to extend life at all costs "extends the suffering of cripples". In other words, he doesn't see the life of disabled people as having value.

Speaking as someone who has teetered on the edge of disability most of my life, so does essentially everyone else. We tie health insurance/access to healthcare to your employer for a few reasons, but I think fundamentally it's because we believe that those who cannot work are undeserving.

the healthcare-employment thing is mostly American.

but about cannot work -> undeserving, I think it's mostly idle -> undeserving. Americans are terribly worried about idleness.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#182

Post by markhahn » Thu, Nov 02, 2023, 3:20 PM UTC

RationalDino wrote: post #92

gumby wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vocabulary does not seem extraordinary to me. The only oddball words are actually neologisms of Illich’s (e.g. “pleonexia”) which are quoted and explained. I doubt someone like, say, Orwell, who complained about the stultifying use of language, would have any objection to this essay.

Average reading level consensus from https://readabilityformulas.com/readability-scoring-system.p... is "college graduate". Most people read well below their theoretical grade level. For example about half of high school graduates read at a grade 8 level or below. There have been a number of surveys of adult proficiency in reading. For instance the 2013 PIAAC. From that, I would estimate less than 2% of people can re…

is reading level really a binary threshold?

to me it's always seemed like a smooth gradient, so people have a comfort level mainly reflecting the amount of effort they're willing to put in. in that case, writing in the complex style is really selecting for audience effort. this might be desirable, and might even be efficient.

I usually avoid that style, but mainly because it feels so performative.

Re: Ivan Illich’s radical critique of modern certitudes (2021)

#183

Post by eszed » Sun, Nov 05, 2023, 6:43 PM UTC

wanderingbit wrote: post #101

wslh wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like he is talking about influencers, where there is a relationship that is based on abstract metrics like number of followers and unclear success. Here I use abstract and metrics together to convey the idea that the metrics does not give a real meaning. Obviously there are many people who perfectly deserves their "followers" but it is gamed by other people removing real meaning.

That’s now how I understood the quote. I thought of it more like if you went to go hire a doctor, then the best people to review that doctor would not be the university that gave the doctor their credential, or even the doctor’s patients; it would be the doctor’s colleagues who understand the doctor’s strengths and weaknesses best because they are the only ones who have the direct relationship as well as technical sk…

I think that's incorrect. He wants clients to consult other clients, not professional colleagues.

I like it in principle, but in practice it's too amenable to gaming (witness every review section and spam-fed product listing in my search results) to actually work at scale.