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Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

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Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#181

Post by redox99 »

0cf8612b2e1e wrote: post #56
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

I still believe there is potential for hydrogen/ammonia/methane fuel to be a seasonal storage mechanism. Battery technology does not seem capable of offering grid scale storage for the entirety of Winter. While the solar->fuel->electricity conversion takes huge efficiency hits, for “free” renewable energy, it can still pencil out as economical. Plus, it is feasible today without unobtanium (but not currently cost com…

> seasonal storage mechanism

Is this even needed? With solar, wind, etc storing more than a few days worth of energy seems very wasteful.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#182

Post by toomuchtodo »

mem0r1 wrote: post #114

The argumentation is flawed. 1. Just imagine the required charging infrastructure if all vehicles were suddenly battery powered. Charging electric vehicles requires quite some power. Can the power grid installations sustain that (power lines, Transformer stations...) ? What resources (financial and physical (e.g. Cooper)) are required in order to adapt the infrastructure ? Just an example: A supercharger station whic…

https://advocacy.consumerreports.org/research/blog-can-the-g... ("A question that frequently comes up when discussing electric vehicles (EVs) is: “Can the grid handle it?” The short answer is “yes.”") [Blog post demonstrates the math showing the grid can handle 100% EVs]

Superchargers are primarily for road trips and people who need to fast charge because they don’t have home charging (for now; infra is rolling out very fast). Most will charge at home, work, or other locations that perhaps have a level 2 charger (vs a fast DC charger). A 120V 15amp outlet is sufficient to fully charge your vehicle if left for 2-3 days or more at an airport or other longer dwell location.

> Batteries are not a suitable large scale energy storage.

They will get us most of the way to success. Some combination of seasonal storage, renewables overbuilding, transmission, and limited fossil generation (peakers, cogeneration, etc) will be needed to get close to 100% net zero.

https://www.tesla.com/ns_videos/Tesla-Master-Plan-Part-3.pdf

https://www.energy-storage.news/nrel-rapid-growth-of-energy-...

https://www.nrel.gov/docs/fy22osti/81779.pdf

Enough sunlight falls on the Earth every ~2 minutes to power humanity for a year. We're just arguing shuffling the electrons around.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#183

Post by Reason077 »

linsomniac wrote: post #95
dieselgate wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Am not well versed on these considerations but it appears one advantage of hydrogen is energy density compared to batteries. This may be less an issue for passenger vehicles but could be more relevant for air travel - as an example. No comments or opinions otherwise re: funding etc. Found the below article useful as a primer: https://www.energy.gov/eere/fuelcells/articles/fuel-cell-and...

Haven't we tried hydrogen for air travel before? ;-)

It's been used successfully for space travel, in liquid (cryogenic) form. The Space Shuttle's main engines ran on hydrogen fuel, for example.

However the latest generation of rockets seems to have moved away from hydrogen back to things like RP-1 (kerosene) and liquid methane. The high cost and difficulties of working with hydrogen is a factor in this.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#184

Post by mulmen »

toss1 wrote: post #157
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen for cars is dead. However long haul flights, fertilizer, green steel, etc. very difficult to find a carbon free alternative that isn’t hydrogen.

Yup. Even Toyota, a big H2 promoter is bailing and announcing high-range. solid-state, fast charging batteries [0, 1, 2]. Makes me wonder if the H2 promotion was just a ruse to misdirect the rest of the industry while it caught up, and possibly even leapfrogged (we'll see if their announcements play out), on battery tech? [0] Toyota Teases Solid-State Batteries in 2027 https://spectrum.ieee.org/toyota-solid-state-bat…

I think Toyota also had their hands tied a bit because the entire country of Japan has heavily invested in hydrogen. I can understand why it makes sense strategically for a country like Japan without their own oil (or lithium?) reserves. Toyota is a Japanese industrial powerhouse so I wouldn’t be surprised if they were receiving subsidies and maybe even direction on hydrogen research. Only now that they have invested enough to prove hydrogen is a fantasy can they move on to batteries.

I’m not sure it’s such a loss though. Nissan was early with the Leaf but nobody talks about them as cornering the EV market. Toyota can benefit from the battery advancements everyone else made over the last 15 years and catch up quickly.

At the time it made sense to invest in hydrogen. And in hindsight it wasn’t as much of a mistake as it might seem. It was a moonshot but they didn’t risk their existence on it and if it had worked they’d look like geniuses. If hydrogen was feasible Toyota and Japan would be world leaders in energy tech or at least have secure domestic energy independence.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#185

Post by theshrike79 »

wongarsu wrote: post #84
idontpost wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My gut is that the majority of hydrogen proponents are oil and gas lobbyists or funded by them I don't understand how any one looks at the electric car charging situation and thinks it makes sense to scale that out to 100% of vehicles. A 2 hour wait to get a charger spot isn't a workable transport system.

The envisioned car charging situation is that you charge your car at home or at work. Cars sit unused 99% of the time, they can use that time charging without issues. What we are experiencing now is transitional, where people use infrastructure intended for road-trips for their daily needs. That phase will pass

Exactly.

I charge at my parking spot with around 2-2.5kW power use. With that I'll get about 100-150km of range overnight easily. I drive less than that daily, which means my car's battery is full practically all the time.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#186

Post by actionfromafar »

xoa wrote: post #171
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen for cars is dead. However long haul flights, fertilizer, green steel, etc. very difficult to find a carbon free alternative that isn’t hydrogen.

> very difficult to find a carbon free alternative that isn’t hydrogen. The basic mistake you're making here is thinking that "carbon free" is key. It is not, what matters is that a given energy source is carbon NEUTRAL . Anthropogenic global warming is driven primarily by net increase in atmospheric CO2 on our timescale. When CO2 in consumed from the atmosphere, and then shortly released again (textbook example bein…

Steel production really needs hydrogen though. Hopefully the first test-production facilities will come online soon in Sweden. But I agree on for instance air travel. Don't faff around with hydrogen in planes. Convert the hydrogen to something liquid, like the Porsche e-fuel, then use it in regular jet turbofans.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#187

Post by ggreer »

gtvwill wrote: post #21
deviantbit wrote: post #3

The electric car industry is spinning alternatives. Hydrogen is a much better alternative all around. You'll be able to convert existing cars much easier.

Why would you want to? Existing cars suck to work on compared to an electric. Ice needs too many parts it's inefficient for moving vehicles. Legit ditch all that running gear and give me hub motors on suspension arms. That's it. Don't need anything else. Ice vehicles gonna get squeezed out by economics. Why pay some Muppet a few k to pull a block out to do gaskets when for little more than removing a Tyre I could rep…

What EVs on the road today have hub motors? That unsprung mass would ruin handling. Also the motor could easily be damaged by hard bumps from potholes or curbs.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#188

Post by pornel »

toss1 wrote: post #157
_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen for cars is dead. However long haul flights, fertilizer, green steel, etc. very difficult to find a carbon free alternative that isn’t hydrogen.

Yup. Even Toyota, a big H2 promoter is bailing and announcing high-range. solid-state, fast charging batteries [0, 1, 2]. Makes me wonder if the H2 promotion was just a ruse to misdirect the rest of the industry while it caught up, and possibly even leapfrogged (we'll see if their announcements play out), on battery tech? [0] Toyota Teases Solid-State Batteries in 2027 https://spectrum.ieee.org/toyota-solid-state-bat…

I think Toyota is making these pie-in-the-sky announcements to Osborne[1] other manufacturer's BEVs, and delay electrification too, because Toyota's actual battery tech that exist is far behind their competitors.

[1]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osborne_effect

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#189

Post by justapassenger »

downrightmike wrote: post #122
cracrecry wrote: post #113

There is an Oil Sector Lobby and there is an electric sector Lobby too. All Lobbies hate competition. The electric sector wants to destroy Hydrogen because it competes with them, of course, they want to destroy the seed so no tree comes out of it. Hydrogen disappearing is not going to happen, because it going to be necessary for some things, like heavy transportation. Just because clean Hydrogen is in the early stage…

Most of the hydrogen made today is made from fossil fuels, so they of course love that idea.

So is most of electricity. None of that matters for the future.

Re: Oil sector is lobbying for inefficient hydrogen cars to delay electrification

#190

Post by crote »

super256 wrote: post #19
gmane wrote: post #5

Anyone who has followed hydrogen as a fuel for a while sees pretty easily that its a solution in search of a problem. It really doesn't make sense to use renewables to make hydrogen fuel to then burn: batteries are better for storage of energy in most cases (I will grant that there are edge cases where a liquid/gas fuel is a better technical solution than batteries, but I think that options like ethanol are probably…

What about using hydrogen in lorries/trucks? I see that argument thrown around often in hydrogen vs battery discussions.

It's an option.

But short-range trucks can operate with batteries just fine, and for long-range trucks it might end up being more viable to just construct overhead wires[0] above long-distance highways and avoid the problem altogether.

[0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3P_S7pL7Yg

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