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Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

oag.ca.gov

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Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#181

Post by fransje26 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #147
PeterStuer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traveling to the US is for most Europeans a mightmare on this point. We are used to have a price that includes the taxes, services, delivery, wathever, you pay this much for this good ot service, and not an anachronistic 'tip' incantation for which you have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules, or you have to wip out your phone to google tax ra…

> have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules You do realise you are travelling to a foreign country, right? This rings to me like Americans who travel to Spain and complain about the siesta, or Argentina and how late they dine. Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. Also, most retail…

> Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world.

> cultural distrust of taxation and government

> a decreasing tendency to use cash

> higher income per capita

Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper.

> Also, most retailers here use paper labels

Great! Makes it even easier to printout the actual price. 1) Retrieve base price from database 2) Add local tax 3) Add whatever other "hidden" cost is needed 4) Printout label.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#182

Post by heimidal »

sacnoradhq wrote: post #112
adasdasdas wrote: post #7

I don't know why we can't just force everyone to show post tax/fees price upfront. It's complete bullshit that every restaurant bill comes with 3 different taxes.

VAT like the rest of the world for decades.

The "12.5% service charge" you see all over London would beg to differ.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#183

Post by heimidal »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #156
tjbiddle wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. Taxes can change quickly, and it's a pain in the ass to keep up with. If you're now needing to deal with changing the printed price on tens, hundreds, thousands of items - I can't even imagine. 2. Online sales you won't even be able to calculate it until the customer puts in their shipping information. And no, they can't figure that out beforehand as there are a myriad of reasons why where their IP is does not mea…

Shops change their prices sometimes multiple times a day (UK), sales taxes change on the order of decades here. Stores can cope. It sounds like your legislature spend all their time setting taxes?

I'm curious, do books have prices printed on them in the UK? Here in the US, the suggested retail price (pre-tax, obviously) is generally printed by the manufacturer on the back or inside the dust cover of every book.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#184

Post by JumpCrisscross »

fransje26 wrote: post #181
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules You do realise you are travelling to a foreign country, right? This rings to me like Americans who travel to Spain and complain about the siesta, or Argentina and how late they dine. Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. Also, most retail…

> Lots of local government means taxes change over smaller distances in America than most of the world. > cultural distrust of taxation and government > a decreasing tendency to use cash > higher income per capita Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper. > Also, most retailers here use paper labels Great! Makes it even easier to printout the act…

> Really don't see how any of the points above are an obstacle to putting the ~actual~ price of a product on paper

The pieces of paper are in multiple places. The bill is calculated in one place. Doing things in multiple places is more costly and error prone than doing it in one. (Also, the paper being physical means a physical person must update it. The POS can be remotely managed.)

Here is New York State's guide on clothing and footwear taxes [1]. (It's particularly well documented.) If any one of those counties makes a change, you're now proposing someone run through the entire store to update the affected labels or else risk lying about the price. That's manageable for a multinational. It's bonkers for a small shop owner. Instead, their POS is remotely updated (worst case, they get a bulletin to punch in a code) and when the barcode is scanned, the system figures out whether it's $110 or less and if it's really a costume or not.

If consumers valued it, tax-inclusive pricing might be worth the effort. But in America, we don't. The number isn't big enough, and I'm swiping or tapping either way. (Cash-only stores do tend to be tax inclusive, at least in New York, but that's because they're usually not paying the whole tax.) As I said, I can't remember finding it helpful when I travel to tax-inclusive priced countries. Surprising as it may seem, this really is simply a cultural preference. No right answer.

[1] https://www.tax.ny.gov/pdf/publications/sales/pub718c.pdf

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#185

Post by snovv_crash »

kelnos wrote: post #97
PeterStuer wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Traveling to the US is for most Europeans a mightmare on this point. We are used to have a price that includes the taxes, services, delivery, wathever, you pay this much for this good ot service, and not an anachronistic 'tip' incantation for which you have to be tuned in to the latest local vibes so as not to unintentionaly run afoul of some obfuscated social rules, or you have to wip out your phone to google tax ra…

"Everyone knows" is indeed US-centric in this case, but when we are talking about the state of things where it relates to a US state's law, the US-centric view is entirely fine and should be expected. If we were talking about, say, a French law, I would expect the default assumption to be French standards and customs.

I would expect that if someone gives you an invoice, or advertises a price, the amount you pay is the amount listed. Otherwise it's basically fraud, or at least false advertising.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#186

Post by heimidal »

kelnos wrote: post #106
xmprt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes are set at a multiple levels (federal, state, district, and city) so it's pretty much impossible to show the post tax price on the label. Hidden fees are a completely different issue.

That only makes sense for an online store that's going to ship you something, in which case asking for the destination ZIP code up front solves that problem. For brick-and-mortar stores, the store can quite easily calculate the final price of an item on its own. Sales taxes do change on occasion, but likely less often than the pricing of the items themselves do, so there's no added burden in having to update them due…

FYI, ZIP code is not enough to calculate tax rate. You need city and county. 9,000 ZIP codes cross county borders.

Currently, consumers can generally tell if they are getting a reasonable price by comparing the MSRP they see in an ad against the price they see in store. For example, if the nationally advertised price of an Xbox is $500 and Best Buy has it for $500, I know I'm not being swindled.

But if the in-store price is $550? I guess I have to haul out my calculator and ask for the store's tax rate so I can determine whether or not Best Buy is ripping me off and I should take my business elsewhere.

Ideally, they'd show pre-tax price, tax rate, and calculated total price on every tag. Maybe, one day, we'll see action on this in a state or two, but I don't suspect it is high on the lists of any lawmakers.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#187

Post by heimidal »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #46
hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. Note the California bill specifically exempts taxes from this "upfront pricing" requirement. The reason I think listing taxes separately is OK is because (a) it is not something that the business itself has any choice over, and (b) all businesses have to tax the same for equivalent services. I think listing the taxes separately serves an important purpose to remind the purchaser about where your payments…

but I will say that restaurants I've been to always highlight any mandatory fees besides normal sales tax on the menu In San Francisco, restaurants rarely highlight the fees. They are usually in smaller font at the bottom of the menu (and maybe only on one side of a double-sided menu) and sometimes not discoverable until you get the bill. Here's a typical example (click on 'menu'): https://maps.app.goo.gl/XS3puQEttQV…

You often see the same thing in the UK (a 12.5% "discretionary service charge" listed in small text that you must ask to have removed from your bill).

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#188

Post by snovv_crash »

heimidal wrote: post #178
thfuran wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Most obviously for display, tv, or radio ads you cannot ensure correct taxes in the advertisement. They really shouldn't be advertising false claims in the first place. >It also doesn't work for online sales, where the final price can depend on the final destination of the goods or service. e.g. the taxes cannot be displayed until you've been given a street level address. That one has an easy solution: Just ask for…

> They really shouldn't be advertising false claims in the first place. Just to be clear, you're suggesting that all pricing be removed from all advertising nationwide. This would clearly be to the detriment of the consumer. > That one has an easy solution: Just ask for the destination. Again, this is to the customer's detriment. They have to provide their personal information just to see the price of any item on any…

False advertising is beneficial to the consumer how exactly?

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#189

Post by Simulacra »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #133
seer wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I really like how tips are done in most of europe, where the tip is included by default in the restaurant price. So now your choices are - add additional tip if you’re really satisfied with your service, or retract the default tip if you’ve been wronged in some way. Just by default you don’t have to think about it, and it shows up in all the places if should - government included.

In the UK there's no tip included by default. Wages of workers is included, just like the other overheads are. If you want to give a gift to someone -- a tip -- how could that possibly be even known in advance.

As it should be. Businesses should pay a living wage, and tips should only be absolutely voluntary, and without incitement.

Re: Bill to ban hidden fees in California signed into law

#190

Post by heimidal »

autoexec wrote: post #148
rahimnathwani wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxes and government fees are exempt because it promotes transparency! I wish gas stations showed taxes separately, but I'm guessing retail gas stations aren't the ones collecting and remitting those taxes. It's probably taken earlier in the supply chain.

It doesn't promote transparency. It means you still don't know how much something is going to cost by looking at the listed price of that thing. That's the opposite of transparency. Including taxes and fees in the advertised price won't prevent stores (or anyone else) from making it clear what percentage of that price comes from taxes and government fees. I'd love to see more stores provide an itemized breakdown of t…

It would require a massive overhaul of the tax code in every state, not to mention that it would require state-by-state coordination because Congress cannot force them to comply. Other countries do it because their constitution generally does not include a clause like the Tenth Amendment.

But wow, the things it would do to national marketing. Imagine an iPhone launch. Tim Cook gets to the pricing slide and it says, "Starting at $1099 in Alaska, Delaware, Montana, New Hampshire, and Oregon. Check your local store for your pricing in your location." That's our cue to mentally add our local tax rate like we do already, now with the added benefit of feeling bad about where we live.

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