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Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

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Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#181

Post by KMag »

pipo234 wrote: post #12
A_D_E_P_T wrote: post #2

The prize is supposedly awarded to those who have "done the most or the best work for fraternity between nations, for the abolition or reduction of standing armies and for the holding and promotion of peace congresses." Hmmm. Well. I don't quite see how formenting revolution fits the bill, but the Peace Prize has been very strange of late in general. By its own lights, I don't see a single person or entity who would…

The Nobel Peace Prize has historically been surrounded by the kind of ambivalent feelings you allude to. To name one: Hume & Trimble (1998) was considered ironic because it was viewed as kind of reward for ceasing violence they initially caused. Similar remarks were made in 1993 about Mandela and De Klerk. It can even be argued that Gorbachev and Carter had blood on their hands before becoming saints. Maybe this kind…

> monetary price is paid by the deeply ironic invention of dynamite by Alfred Nobel.

Note that net-net, the invention of dynamite probably saved many lives. Nitroglycerin-based dynamite invented by Nobel isn't very useful for military purposes, and has never been in wide military use. It can't be safely stored for long periods or in hot conditions, making it ill-suited for battlefield logistics. Nitroglycerin-based dynamite is primarily used in mining and earth-moving.

Properly stored, dynamite is both much safer and more powerful than the black powder or liquid nitroglycerine that were primarily used in mining and earth-moving before the invention of dynamite.

Much later, "military dynamite", a more stable dynamite substitute devoid of nitroglycerine and more suited to military use was developed. While more stable, it's more expensive, and less commonly used. I don't believe Nobel had anything to do with the development of military dynamite.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#182

Post by tibbydudeza »

Luctct wrote: post #177
tibbydudeza wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or Chile where they overthrew an elected communist govt and they got Pinochet and the disappeared. But I am grateful for them helping Ukraine even if it for their own geopolitical goals.

Allende was destroying Chile. The Chilean military had the good sense of putting an end to it.

But he was elected good or bad policies it was up to the voters to decide - the CIA/US supported coup bought in a military dictator who had people dropped into the sea and lakes from aircraft.

How about the mothers still today protesting about their sons/daughters who disappeared (1,248).

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#183

Post by continuitylimit »

LindeBuzoGray wrote: post #148
binarymax wrote: post #103

It would be nice if instead of everyone hating on the prize, we could take a moment and reflect. Think of what this woman and many other women trapped in these regimes are going through, the sacrifices they've made, and the bravery they show to try to make things better. Think the prize is politicized and corrupt? Whatever - it's not about you or your opinion.

> Think of what this woman and many other women trapped in these regimes are going through Iran had a parliament in 1953, when the US and UK launched operation Ajax after the prime Minister nationalized Iran's oil. The prime Minister was ousted, a dictator replaced him - who returned to Iran on a flight with Allen Dulles. The conservative mullahs were western allies in removing power from the parliament. Then this st…

Your story about operation Ajax is just that - a story. Iran’s PMs were all elected by parliament and the one before Mr. Mossadeq was assassinated by Islamists allied to your “democrat” who then let the killer get off with no jail time.

You also fail to note that the PM in question had a “99%” referendum during his tenure. You also fail to mention that the said PM refused his constitutionally valid dismissal by the Shah and then proceeded to launch a COUP against the constitutional monarchy.

You fail to mention all this because NYTimes and CIA and the rest of the Western world is perfectly happy with the narrative of Kermit Roosevelt getting off the plane with a suitcase of dollars and then taking over a “99%” supported regime overnight! CIA is sure impressive!

The facts are that the PM in question began to alienate his allies — the Islamists — so they withdrew support, and very substantial chunk of the nation absolutely did not agree with his coup and his program of unilaterally changing the outcome of the 1905 Constitutional Revolution of Iran which do grant certain powers to the monarch. This includes dismissing the PM.

So, now that we have a more ‘rounded’ historic context of what actually led to ‘53 counter coup encouraged and supported by US and UK (which failed) and the next day’s Army’s counter-coup (which succeeded), the topical point remains:

Whatever CIA, or “Anglo-Saxons” or this or that evil empire has done in NO WAY excuse or elucidate the dictatorial regime of the clergy and their very open trampling the rights of women in Iran.

I am not sure what is the Islamist version of “Tankee” but you are it.

[and a ps for Iranians in the audience]

If you continue to repeat the ridiculous NYTimes/CIA version of the story you are denigrating our great people. The idea that some flunky from CIA with a suitcase of cash managed to unseat a “99%” PM overnight mainly says that Iranians are mindless chumps who are trivially manipulated. This is neither flattering or accurate.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#184

Post by AlbertCory »

LindeBuzoGray wrote: post #148
binarymax wrote: post #103

It would be nice if instead of everyone hating on the prize, we could take a moment and reflect. Think of what this woman and many other women trapped in these regimes are going through, the sacrifices they've made, and the bravery they show to try to make things better. Think the prize is politicized and corrupt? Whatever - it's not about you or your opinion.

> Think of what this woman and many other women trapped in these regimes are going through Iran had a parliament in 1953, when the US and UK launched operation Ajax after the prime Minister nationalized Iran's oil. The prime Minister was ousted, a dictator replaced him - who returned to Iran on a flight with Allen Dulles. The conservative mullahs were western allies in removing power from the parliament. Then this st…

#whataboutism

The fact is, the mullahs torture and kill anyone who speaks up. That's happening now, not 71 years ago.

"women trapped in these regimes" does not need quotation marks, unless you think there are NO women trapped in these regimes.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#185

Post by catlover76 »

michaeltimo wrote: post #179
catlover76 wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am only a little more informed than most people on the topic, but I think it's kind of like this: The conservative majority likes having an Islamic Republic, and has a lingering "memory" of the corruption and such of the Shah's regime, but that doesn't necessarily mean they like what the current regime has become. And as another poster said, the majority of the country, whatever their social/religious views, seems…

The main question is, what percentage of the society are these conservatives? What's the opinion of the rest of people? Unlike you, in my opinion, most people have good memories of the Shah's time (Zamane Shah). It's quite funny, but most of the hospitals that are now named after Khomeini Hospital were built by the Shah. Also most stadiums and universities. Moreover, this is a superficial view of the story if we thin…

It's probably a little bit like they now think this is worse than Zamaan-e-Shah, and that time is now viewed with history's rose-colored glasses

But the Shah was overthrown for a reason (and his overthrow was good and just even if what succeeded it didn't pan out well), and was a pretty popular event.

In the absence of the Regime's latest round of oppression, where they really turned it up a notch, and in the absence of economic turmoil, I doubt there would be much by the way of serious protests. I don't believe that absolutely everything can be reduced to economic factors, but I think that's usually a pretty big motivator in terms of getting most of any population to care enough about something to risk life and limb to protest.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#186

Post by dotnet00 »

tibbydudeza wrote: post #175
dotnet00 wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for clarifying that you were only putting up a facade of being unbiased.

And there is no such thing - but I don't live in the US so my perspective is probably far more balanced than most people here.

Carrying water for tyrannical regimes while eating up the regime's propaganda and replying to any other information with whataboutisms doesn't make you balanced. It makes you, at best, a useful idiot. Not all too different from those supporting Russia's invasion of Ukraine citing Russian propaganda about how NATO was preparing to invade Russia.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#187

Post by quotz »

Gud wrote: post #144
screye wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Genuine question, doesn't the ultra-orthodox wing reflect the popular opinion of the country ? My understanding is that Iran has among the greatest Urban-Rural divides in the world, and that the rural population is large enough to democratically force their conservative views onto the urban population. Turkey seems to be in a similar position, but their proximity to NATO and Europe keeps them somewhat grounded. > sma…

The Iranian government has killed thousands of people and repressed other viewpoints not supported by the ruling elite. It is possible the general population in Iran support this. All I know is that in countries where the people are allowed to voice their opinions freely, they generally oppose raping and torturing prisoners.

But this also works for China. I dont see any nobel prizes awarded to the uyghurs yet

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#188

Post by AlbertCory »

screye wrote: post #132
ReptileMan wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the world is just as peaceful (or peaceless) as before her activism. Now if she actually overthrew or forced the government to reform - it would be different. But award should be given for results not efforts.

It does feel more like the 'Western moral prize' rather than a Peace Prize. Truth is, the most peaceful transitions are usually military coups. 'Peacefully' won transitions are often the bloodiest. Fear is a terrible thing, but it does lead to effective peace. With the Nobel Peace Prize, it's usually a coin toss between moral martyr, future genocider and someone who did impactful work towards peace. The best example…

> It does feel more like the 'Western moral prize' rather than a Peace Prize.

I'm not seeing the problem here. Some non-Western regimes seem to think it's fine to deny people their human rights, e.g. Iran, Venezuela, Afghanistan, China. There is no moral equivalence between Western and those.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#189

Post by y-c-o-m-b »

screye wrote: post #136
Gud wrote: post #112

Well deserved. Iran has so much potential. It's extremely sad how a small group of extremists holds the entire country hostage.

Genuine question, doesn't the ultra-orthodox wing reflect the popular opinion of the country ? My understanding is that Iran has among the greatest Urban-Rural divides in the world, and that the rural population is large enough to democratically force their conservative views onto the urban population. Turkey seems to be in a similar position, but their proximity to NATO and Europe keeps them somewhat grounded. > sma…

That is not possible to answer due to the very high level of oppression. I still have Muslim family back home in Iran, especially in rural areas of Gilan province. They are very much against the government and its form of rule, but they are also not too keen on the socially liberal aspects of western democracy either. If I were to draw a rough comparison to the US political spectrum, I would place them as moderates similar to Mitt Romney supporters, or at worst McCain. The ultra-orthodox - closer to the Ted Cruz types - is mostly made up of the the Mullahs and their following for which there are plenty, but far outnumbered by moderates and liberals combined. Again though, this is impossible to measure as if you go around surveying the country, most people (especially in the elder generation) will not publicly speak out against the government and its policies.

Re: Narges Mohammadi wins 2023 Nobel Peace Prize

#190

Post by LanceH »

suoduandao3 wrote: post #121
parthdesai wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So I thought it was weird, sure, but I could somehow rationalize it. Not if you happened to be a person in Libya/Syria/Afghanistan or a few other middle eastern countries.

If I recall correctly though, Obama won the peace prize shortly after winning the election and ran from a much more doveish platform than he governed from.

He won the prize before actually doing anything more than campaign promises. If we're awarding prizes based on campaign promises...well, there will be some interesting awards, indeed.
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