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Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

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Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The trouble with this argument is it applies to your thoughts about reality, not just to your will. Your argument implies your thoughts at time t are solely the result of your state at time t-1 and your environment. But if that's the case, your thoughts aren't about reality; they're just a result of reality, a result of whatever state you happen to be in. But if your thoughts aren't about reality, why should your arg…

If you consider the processes of the mind to be acausal, that also removes the possibility of rational argument. It's possible that I'm a Boltzmann brain with nonsensical memories about environmental stimuli that mislead me about what reality is, but it's tedious to prepend every statement about reality with "the conception of reality that my state at time t-1 and my environment have lead me to believe is the most li…

I didn't claim the mind's processes were acausal; simply that they could not be reduced to cause, to the exclusion of anything else. If they can be so reduced, rational argument is impossible, because causal processes are not the same as rational argument. When I punch "2 + 2 =" into a calculator and the screen says "4", it's a causal process. When my kid grasps that 2 + 2 = 4, it's different. His mind has reasoned its way to this truth; it is not simply that the brain-state "2 + 2" has produced the further brain-state "4". If that were the case, he (and we) could never know that 2+2 resulted in 4; it could just as easily produce 5, or a green rabbit, or whatever else our mind had been caused to think at any given time.

If reasoning has any validity, it cannot be reduced to causal processes.

Therefore any argument -- any attempt at reasoning -- that claims that the mind's processes are merely causal undermines itself in the very process of being made.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#182
Long-time HN lurker here, and I think it's finally time to finally create a profile and post my first comment.

I'm the CEO of an outpatient mental health organization with 50+ employees (mostly just run the tech in the background these days), I have been a professional in the field for 18 years in a wide variety of settings, and two of my four children have intermittently had symptoms that match the description of PANDAS / PANS for the past four years. Happy, gentle kids prior to it, often complemented in public for their good manners, then sudden onset for both of them after a Step-A infection, starting with neurological signs (occular shudder), then Berserker-level constant violence afterwards.

What is most maddening for parents is how powerless the whole experience leaves you feeling. I know this field, had worked with kids with these symptoms in a professional setting where I was widely viewed as the most successful clinician they had ever seen, I leveraged every asset I had to try and get my kids help (called up a family favor with the owner of a Children's hospital) and STILL the response from the hospital was to say that there was nothing wrong with my children, everything they were seeing was simply "behavioral," report me to child protection, and accuse me of Munchausen's. Close family members concluded my wife and I were child abusers when we asked them for help, and ran for the hills as soon as they got a glimpse of what was actually going on.

At the end of the day, the reality of PANS / PANDAS is even possible is not something that anyone is prepared to handle. That an innocent child could suddenly be turned into a violent weapon of mass destruction at any moment in time at the drop of a hat is a notion from a zombie apocalypse movie, not reality. Zombie apocalypse movies are actually the best possible way to imagine what it is like to live with a child with PANS / PANDAS, including the intermittent groaning biting.

To give you a clinician's perspective, when I was a young clinician working with these kids, we didn't believe it either. Neuro-autoimmune disorders were not even on the map back then, and we were always told to assume that some sort of trauma was underlying the violent behavior, because what else could possibly drive someone to do those things? Parents would tell me, "but this came on suddenly, out of nowhere, they were a happy normal kid before," and we would just assume they were lying, clueless, or some combination of the two because we could never definitely rule out that some sort of awful trauma had happened. Sure, these kids never responded well to known trauma treatments, which definitely suggested something additional was amiss, but then again there has always been a subgroup of individuals with complex trauma who do not respond well to treatment, so...

Now that I am a parent, however, and these are my own kids, I can with a high degree of confidence rule out trauma as a diagnosis in a way that I never could back then. My kids are home-schooled so it's not like we missed some sort of bullying at school, my wife and I are both professional mental health therapists so we know every parenting and behavioral conditioning trick in the book, I'm moderately wealthy and can afford to provide them with anything they need, and yet still the violent behavior continues, in complete defiance of everything I was ever taught. I sincerely wish I could apologize somehow to all those families I worked with way back when...

One of the things that makes me the most angry is the fact that the mental health system I work in is complicit in maintaining the illusion that they can help these kids. Occasionally someone will observe one of my kids acting out and will say "you should take your kids to see a therapist," as if a little routine behavioral insight could get this all fixed up in a jiffy. And if you took such a child to a therapist, they would probably be happy to attempt useless interventions on these children for years (hopefully not at my business, but perhaps even there), but the truth is that the world of mental health has nothing to offer these children. Zero, other than perhaps some palliative care for the trauma of going through and endless waking nightmare and perhaps some slightly nicer containment and quarantining facilities than you might have in your own home. I've worked in the settings where these children tend to accumulate and for the most part they simply don't...get...better. Why? Maybe because the core problem is not "behavioral," but with therapy being "so hot right now," nobody can seem to tolerate the notion that it's not a panacea for everything.

For those of you who have posted comments about your own experiences with children with PANS / PANDAS, I commend your courage and determination to continue pursuing ways to help your kids in spite of the resistance and the absolutely terrible advice the world has likely given you on how to help them. Know that you're not alone. It seems like every time I tell my story to someone, they know someone who is going through the same thing. It's possible that the frequency and prevalence of this problem is actually increasing over time, but we don't have good numbers on what exactly is happening because most of the world is still busy denying that the problem exists. I am consequently glad to see this issue getting more mainstream traction, both in the Economist and on HackerNews.

Side-note: like with most things involving the brain, I think we are unfortunately still a long way from understanding how PANS / PANDAS actually works. We have some theories, but those theories tend to not hold up well in studies (which is why PANDAS was renamed PANS to broaden the range of possible etiologies) but likely the syndrome is complex and multidimensional, with a wide variety of pathways leading to a similar endpoint (including pathways that don't even involve the immune system), sort of like Autism. So don't assume that there is a simple answer either. There are lots of stories about things like antibiotics or IVIG helping, but they don't work for everyone and each case is likely to require a slightly different approach, so the more important thing is to never give up and commit yourself to a systematic process of trial and error until you find something that works for your kids and your family. If you can, get some medical-grade genetic testing done, teach yourself some rudimentary bioinformatics, then put your tech skills to good use by mining that CRAM file for gold. That process led to tremendously helpful insights and intervention strategies for my family that would never have been uncovered otherwise.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#183
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. > You are in far less control of your actions then you believe. No. But I say this in a way that might surprise you? I view 'free will', as most people understand it, as an illusion. I recognize that I, at best, have a tiny fraction of control. If I consider "me" to be a locus of control w.r.t. volitional action, then I will grant that "me" has causal impact. But what causally impacted "me" at time t? A co…

The trouble with this argument is it applies to your thoughts about reality, not just to your will. Your argument implies your thoughts at time t are solely the result of your state at time t-1 and your environment. But if that's the case, your thoughts aren't about reality; they're just a result of reality, a result of whatever state you happen to be in. But if your thoughts aren't about reality, why should your arg…

> But if that's the case, your thoughts aren't about reality; they're just a result of reality, a result of whatever state you happen to be in.

According to my premises (materialism being the key one), thoughts are the result of the combination of (a) what happened before and (b) the laws of the universe.

So thoughts can be both: (1) a causal result (previous paragraph) and (2) _about_ reality, from the point of view of one's consciousness.

Any disagreement here?

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#184
There's some evidence that NAC can improve long COVID-like symptoms:

https://medicine.yale.edu/news-article/potential-new-treatme...

Other than antibiotics to clear a lingering infection, are there interventions that we might take in the aftermath of bacterial or viral infection to remediate long-term effects?

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#185

And yet, despite mounting evidence, people are still opposing even basic measures of hygiene in way too many schools. Air filters, if they are even present, are often just plugged out. Windows can't be opened at all. Way too few loos for way too many students, most of them vandalized to hell, no soap dispensers to be seen. On top of that come all the parents who send their kid to school despite clearly being sick.

There's also underfunded research on far-UV light, which at the right wavelengths kills pathogens without apparently affecting humans. It might really be that simple.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/could-uv-light-red...

https://www.cuimc.columbia.edu/news/new-type-ultraviolet-lig...

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#186
post #48

> Dr Pittenger says it is now clear that covid-19 infections can trigger psychosis, fatigue and other neuro-psychiatric symptoms. A misbehaving immune system is thought to be the culprit. The idea that schizophrenia may, at least sometimes, likewise be an auto-immune disorder is also under investigation. Until I got long covid(generally recovered now after 2 years), I couldn't comprehend this idea. I felt like I was…

>It makes you honestly question the idea of freewill. Not eating and getting low blood sugar can much more simply answer the question of "Do I have free will, or am I a subject of my internal chemical reactions". Or, much more simply stated "You're not you when you are hungry".

The central epistemological question with regard to PANS / PANDAS is not free will, but rather: how do you study or measure a phenomenon that violently fights back and is possibly even willing to die in order to prevent your attempts to measure or study it?

Try getting someone who is working overtime to try and harm you and destroy everything around them to have a blood draw done, or to lie down for 45 minutes for an MRI. It's not a cake-walk. Sure, you can sedate them, but the sedating medications skew the tests. In fact, in the context of an immune-mediated disease, any sort of measurement that induces stress may alter the immune system's state and skew your results, because the immune system and stress interact.

Trying to bring objectivity to the study of PANS / PANDAS is kind of like trying to bring objectivity to quantum-physics. Good luck getting a wildly chaotic, stochastic system to reveal its "truth" to you.

I suspect you could say the same with regard to free-will.

In fact, I sometimes think of consciousness and perhaps the brain itself as an extension of the immune system. There are interesting structural similarities between lymph nodes and the brain. That would then recast all psychological problems as a sort of auto-immune condition.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#187
post #115

So I'm unclear based on the article and some other reading around, can a strep test detect PANDAS, at least in some cases?

PANDAS is better described as a syndrome of symptoms all occurring at once. It's caused by strep (and in our case at least) can also be triggered by covid vaccines or other things as well) so a strep text only tells you if the child has strep. In our case, the treatment was the test, in that if it didn't work, it would (arguably) help rule it out. But it did work, for which we're grateful.

According to the conventional PANDAS theory, due to biological mimickry antibodies against Step A bind to neurons and attack them, so there are antibody tests that focus on Strep A that are used as diagnostic tools in PANDAS, such as antistreptolysin O (ASO), anti-DNAse B (ADB), and streptococcal carbohydrate (anti-CHO).

However, there a lots of kids diagnosed with PANDAS who have high levels of those antibodies at some times but not at others, and there are kids with the exact same history and presentation who never show high levels of those antibodies at all. So it could be that there are actually a wide variety of situations in which antibodies that the body creates end up attacking neurons (see anti-NMDA encephalitis), and only some of them are even known about yet.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#188
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. > You are in far less control of your actions then you believe. No. But I say this in a way that might surprise you? I view 'free will', as most people understand it, as an illusion. I recognize that I, at best, have a tiny fraction of control. If I consider "me" to be a locus of control w.r.t. volitional action, then I will grant that "me" has causal impact. But what causally impacted "me" at time t? A co…

The trouble with this argument is it applies to your thoughts about reality, not just to your will. Your argument implies your thoughts at time t are solely the result of your state at time t-1 and your environment. But if that's the case, your thoughts aren't about reality; they're just a result of reality, a result of whatever state you happen to be in. But if your thoughts aren't about reality, why should your arg…

> Causal processes are not the same as logical reasoning, and if you reduce the processes of the mind to the former, you remove the possibility of rational argument.

(I'm not sure if this applies to what I was saying or not; I'll put that aside.)

I'll rephrase the comment above to help ensure I'm talking about the same thing. The claim, as I understand it, goes like this: if one believes the mind is governed by causal processes, then there is no possibility of the brain doing logical reasoning.

Am I understanding the argument as you intended?

I'll proceed with my understanding of it... I don't buy it. Computers are causal and can do logical reasoning just fine.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#189
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well said. > You are in far less control of your actions then you believe. No. But I say this in a way that might surprise you? I view 'free will', as most people understand it, as an illusion. I recognize that I, at best, have a tiny fraction of control. If I consider "me" to be a locus of control w.r.t. volitional action, then I will grant that "me" has causal impact. But what causally impacted "me" at time t? A co…

The trouble with this argument is it applies to your thoughts about reality, not just to your will. Your argument implies your thoughts at time t are solely the result of your state at time t-1 and your environment. But if that's the case, your thoughts aren't about reality; they're just a result of reality, a result of whatever state you happen to be in. But if your thoughts aren't about reality, why should your arg…

> Your argument implies your thoughts at time t are solely the result of your state at time t-1 and your environment.

The laws of physics also matter.

I think we're still on the same page here.

I'm trying to figure out if we disagree, and if so, where.

Re: Common infections can spark psychiatric illnesses in children

#190

> Dr Pittenger says it is now clear that covid-19 infections can trigger psychosis, fatigue and other neuro-psychiatric symptoms. A misbehaving immune system is thought to be the culprit. The idea that schizophrenia may, at least sometimes, likewise be an auto-immune disorder is also under investigation. Until I got long covid(generally recovered now after 2 years), I couldn't comprehend this idea. I felt like I was…

Prior to getting into tech, I had an internship at the NY State Psychiatric Institute (NYSPI) where I did work helping people developing assessment tools for schizophrenic prodromes (people before they develop schizophrenia), as they were working on a predictive assessment questionaire. Basically they were looking for risk factors but also to predict who might actually develop the disease imminently among those at ri…

Recent research suggests that schizophrenia may also be immune-mediated or at least immune-system involved. See:

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyt.2022.8805...

I was at a psychiatric conference once where the presenter highlighted that the last condition that psychiatry actually "cured" was neurosyphilis, an infection-triggered version of schizophrenia, back in the 1940's.

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