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AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

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Re: AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If what Google does - closely observing us, collecting the data for further analysis, often without our knowledge or permission - is not surveillance, then what it is? Which word should we use to describe these activities?

I would say a "data-driven business model". Google is not "closely observing us" in the sense that a policeman surveilles a criminal. And it's not without our knowledge or permission. Google won't learn much about you unless you volunteer the information. At worse, it might learn that a certain browser visited X or Y website (until the browser cookies are cleared). Plus, they collect data to improve their services an…

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Re: AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

#182

Most of the big data stuff is surveillance technology. The more data you collect the more you know about people.

The more you know about people, the more you can sell them what they want to buy, and make them WANT to buy what you're selling.

We are ALL vulnerable to disinformation.

We are ALL vulnerable to emotional manipulation.

We are ALL targets for the complex.

Our only saving grace is that we are not ALL worth monitoring directly. Most of us, by a wide majority, are barely even pixels on a screen somewhere. You can look at the ocean all you want but it's hard to pinpoint a single drop of water in it until it makes a splash.

I would go so far as to say it has become an evil complex that one day our 7th great grandchildren will revile and lament for us having lived through it.

Not because of any excessive torture but because of our being stuck in Tantalus's maw, so close to having everything we could want or need to have happy, jubilant lives and yet forever having it snatched out of reach by a relative handful of exceedingly greedy and selfish people.

Re: AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

#183
post #63
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can use communication tech to avoid surveillance, so no.

And in doing so you've created a data fingerprint that can be surveilled, and then the NSA just roots your phone or data provider or Google or whatever they want, so no, you really can't.

Now you're saying that a potential for surveillance is enough to reduce a thing to a surverillance technology? Not intent, not actual use, just the possibility?

Re: AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

#184
post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Surveillance is something done by states and police forces I will have to disagree here, that is not the dictionary definition of the word. So attempting to call out a serious abuse of language while doing the same thing is definitely an interesting take. Just like governments can abuse their position, so do corporations. Google absolutely has surveilled society at large and been caught and fined for doing so.

How is it not? Cambridge dictionary: the careful watching of a person or place, especially by the police or army, because of a crime that has happened or is expected.

The same dictionary has a great entry for "surveillance capitalism" as well:

> an economic system in which the product for sale is personal data collected on the internet, especially from search engines (= programs used to find information on the internet) and social media platforms (= websites and programs that allow people to communicate and share information on the internet)

I think this is the context folks are reaching for: it's not just a data-driven business model, it's driven by people's personal data in particular. As far as sharing willingly, it's _incredibly_ hard to buy a smartphone and prevent it from collecting your personal information (like location, movement patterns, app usage) without removing much of the functionality that makes it useful.

And once that data is collected, it's open season. I just ran across this piece from today where the government literally goes directly to private data brokers because the NSA takes too long: https://www.404media.co/us-counterintel-buys-netflow-data-te...

That particular case is about tracking VPNs (so not directly related to Google's data collection), but is a good example of how we can limit government's reach, but as long as they can buy data from private firms, there's a loophole in the 4th amendment, likely rooted in the third-party doctrine.

Re: AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

#185
post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can run models locally on my laptop, so no, it isn't. I can even train it locally on my own data if I want to. Your poor take is so unrelated to the article that it suggests you didn't even bothered to read the article you're trying to criticize. It completely fails to even take into account the very basic premise presented in the article. It adds nothing to the discussion, and it reads as uninformed contrarian j…

I read the entire article. I literally quoted from it. Did you bother to read my entire comment? How about when you comment you follow HN guidelines? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".

> I read the entire article. I literally quoted from it. Did you bother to read my entire comment?

I don't think you have. There is nothing in your comment that has any semblance of a relationship to the point made in the article you're supposedly commenting on.

Here's a direct quote from the article:

> “And the use of AI is also surveillant, right?” she continued. “You know, you walk past a facial recognition camera that’s instrumented with pseudo-scientific emotion recognition, and it produces data about you, right or wrong, that says ‘you are happy, you are sad, you have a bad character, you’re a liar, whatever.’ These are ultimately surveillance systems that are being marketed to those who have power over us generally: our employers, governments, border control, etc., to make determinations and predictions that will shape our access to resources and opportunities.”

And here you are, posting inane non-sequitur comments on how it's possible to train models locally?

No, you clearly did not read the article.

Re: AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

#186

Out of topic question. Would it be possible to combine machine learning with something like 23andMe and match 100 000 person photos with their DNA. Would we have an AI model which basically can tell how the persons looks like from a strand of hair? Imagine finding some DNA on a crime scene. Witnesses can say that this person was a bit overweight so you slide some slider to the right a bit and get a pretty good AI gen…

I'd definitely have to err on the side of scary.

Seems like more fodder to abuse minorities behind the guise of fancy tech and supposedly "objective" algorithms. "All [minority] look the same" isn't just something racists say, it is pretty well documented that many people struggle to discern distinguishing facial features of other ethnicities and consistently perform more poorly on facial recognition tasks involving races other than their own.

Now you have an AI generated photo to go by that further does some fudging and blurring of distinctive features... Can you imagine which races in America, for instance, would be subject to more false positives to receive police/prosecutor attention and ultimately be more likely to wand up with charges drawn against them unjustly?

If you are poor, having charges drawn up by the DA means a plea deal and time in jail or prison 9 times out of 10. If you have money for a good lawyer your odds are better, but overall are still significantly worse than if you don't have charges drawn in the first place, despite the fact that there is no evidence of a crime beyond circumstantial crap, maybe some testilying by the arresting officer (their own term, not mine), and a bogus facial match.

Re: AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

#187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the full quote from Whittaker is: > “You know, you walk past a facial recognition camera that’s instrumented with pseudo-scientific emotion recognition, and it produces data about you, right or wrong, that says ‘you are happy, you are sad, you have a bad character, you’re a liar, whatever.’ While I'm not aware of any technology that claims to classify faces as liars the rest of the statement is broadly true. An…

> While I'm not aware of any technology that claims to classify faces as liars There are (and have been for many years of development, although I do not know about deployment) methods for identifying people as criminals.

(Just to clarify, it is a really bad idea)

Re: AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

#188
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the entire article. I literally quoted from it. Did you bother to read my entire comment? How about when you comment you follow HN guidelines? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html > Please don't comment on whether someone read an article. "Did you even read the article? It mentions that" can be shortened to "The article mentions that".

> I read the entire article. I literally quoted from it. Did you bother to read my entire comment? I don't think you have. There is nothing in your comment that has any semblance of a relationship to the point made in the article you're supposedly commenting on. Here's a direct quote from the article: > “And the use of AI is also surveillant, right?” she continued. “You know, you walk past a facial recognition camera…

> There is nothing in your comment that has

You mean like me directly quoting parts of the article from both the beginning and end? Like me pointing out how the article talks about surveillance and then attempts to clumsily tie it to AI?

Fuck off lol

Re: AI is fundamentally ‘a surveillance technology’

#190
post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I read the entire article. I literally quoted from it. Did you bother to read my entire comment? I don't think you have. There is nothing in your comment that has any semblance of a relationship to the point made in the article you're supposedly commenting on. Here's a direct quote from the article: > “And the use of AI is also surveillant, right?” she continued. “You know, you walk past a facial recognition camera…

> There is nothing in your comment that has You mean like me directly quoting parts of the article from both the beginning and end? Like me pointing out how the article talks about surveillance and then attempts to clumsily tie it to AI? Fuck off lol

Truly, I have never seen someone quote the HN guidelines at someone else and then immediately proceed to so blatantly disregard them.

> How about when you comment you follow HN guidelines? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

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